Here's the situation: My boyfriend and I have been dating for almost 6 months-- a pretty perfect relationship, no fights, no disagreements, perfect harmony, great chemistry, physical intimacy, and an all-around great time. We got together because he actively pursued me for about a month before our first date. He was very romantic-- writing me poems and bringing me roses frequently. We settled into a great, promising, relationship, spending every weekend together at my place, and had a routine of speaking on the phone about 5 times a day from the drive to work in the morning till about an hour talking until we both fell asleep at night (we didn't see each other during the week usually because we live about 45 minutes apart). We openly referred to each other as boyfriend/girlfriend, which he initiated first. I felt really great about things. I thought he was The One.
Out of NOWHERE about 3 weeks ago he tells me: "I feel different, I feel strange, I feel that I should miss you more than I do. Let's take some space." I said we needed to see each other (we hadn't in about 2 weeks), but he said that would be "forcing" it. I became frantic but tried to keep cool. I asked if he had any complaints or concerns about our relationship, if I'd pressured him in any way, and he said NO, that our relationship is great, he's been very happy, just that he feels overwhelmed and needs space. So we didn't speak for 3 days (I was suffering), then he starts texting and finally calls and apologizes for what he said, says he misses me very much, but reiterates that he needs some space, to think, as I occupy all his free time and mental space (he actually said that), and there is no other woman, he just needs time alone with himself.
*A few facts: I am 34 and he is 38, divorced 8 years, and has 2 kids ages 14 and 9, who live in his home country. I have never been married and have no children. He has had many financial pressures lately, job stresses (started an exhausting new job that he hates, and is trying to find something better), is also in school in the evenings), and has much more stress than I do as I am pretty successful at my career, work from home, and am much more financially stable, though money has never come up as an issue between us (I'm very low-maintenance). I understand he has a far more complicated life than I do and have always been supportive, and respect that he needs time to deal with many practical concerns. But I don't see why he needs to push me away. I also see that we were extremely involved in each other's lives those first 5 months and it's sort of an impossible standard to maintain so many we needed to readjust the excessive phone calls, etc. So I tried to be patient and give him his time without being a needy nag.
It happened that I already had a trip planned and was out of town for the next 2 weeks. Normally when I travel we speak just as often, but this time we spoke on the phone only once (I called him), and texted a few times, while I noticed his tone had become very distant. I came back from my trip and texted him I was home. He called me (sounding distant) and I said I'd like to see him but he said he didn't think it was possible since it was Father's Day and he was going to his relatives's place. He never called back till Monday when he happened to be working in my area and said we could see each other briefly if it was OK with me. I went, tried to be warm, not hostile or hurt, and when we saw each other we were both grinning and fell right into each other's arms kissing and hugging for 15 minutes straight till he had to go back to work. He was like a new man-- or I should say the old man I knew and loved, he seemed to come alive again! He called me a half an hour later to tell me how great it was to see me and he wished he could have had more time with me, and he sounded so happy and giddy. He said: I will call you later or tomorrow. I (mistakenly) said: Call me later if you can. The result is that he has NOT called or texted me again since, and I am totally perplexed.
I have no idea what the hell is happening!! Is he still taking his space? How long is this going to last? I've been reading my Mars/Venus books and have restrained myself from calling or texting him but this wall of silence is absolutely killing me. What do I do? What does it mean? Is this just the beginning of the end, and is he really trying to ease his way out of the relationship or is this a natural part of "rubber banding" or "uncertainty" or the "cave"? I really thought we were back on track after that beautiful sweet encounter on Monday but I guess I was wrong. I don't want to be a fool here, running on false hope. I do love him and want to be with him and pray this is just a phase, but I am too old for this kind of torture. Help please!!
Delfina, people come here all the time, hoping we can read tea leaves or something and tell them what's going on with the other person. Unfortunately, we have no way of knowing. At best, we can only give some options.
Men taking space is a good thing, unless is a precursor to walking away. We have no idea if that's on his mind or night. Men will think about you more often when they're not around you, so a day or two off here and there is good.
Doing it all the time or getting further and further apart without telling you what's up isn't OK.
What I would suggest for the time being is that you get busy with your own life - hobbies, church, friends, family, volunteering, whatever you need to do so you aren't sitting around and waiting on him. I know it's hard, but it's best. The more OK you are with him taking breaks, the more likely he isn't breaking away.
Eventually, if nothing changes, you guys will have to have a talk as to what's going on. Chances are, at this stage, he doesn't know himself. So I'd leave him alone.
Best of luck.
The only thing you can do is leave him alone. Completely.
Often, for whatever reason, a man will be thinking whether or not he wants to
continue with a relationship and is withdrawing to think it over. It is at that
precise moment that women will also complain that their "needs are not being
met" after which the man will say, "I don't think I can make you happy" and that
is the end of it all.
Men fall in love with us and stay in love with us when they are not with us. Remember
that.
Whether you were with him or not, you were taking up way too much of his time. Talking
on the phone for several hours a day is way too much even if he willingly went along with it.
Thanks so much for your insight. I can't tell you how much it helps.
I know now that we spoke too much. It was just hard to change since he was the one calling me all the time, and of course, because I work from home, I have the luxury of interrupting my work to chat with him whenever I wanted. If we do get another chance, I will certainly do things differently.
While waiting for a sign from him, I have been keeping busy working, working out, talking with family, friends, shopping. But time passes very slowly without him.
I guess that's what I'm most worried about: Do we have a chance?
I worry that this time apart and distance is only making him more used to life without me. I am also very shaken by the fact that when we saw each other on Monday, it felt like a romantic reunion, and now....silence.
He is apparently under a great deal of stress, overwhelmed with things. By taking
up so much of his time you became another chore he had to do each day.
You need to create a life now that is so full you don't miss him. Do this for yourself
and for him, if he comes back.
I know that's what your fear is, but it's because you have a woman's brain. A woman wants connection. Usually All The Time connection. Men aren't wired that way.
I have no idea what's going through his brain, but if he's just needing time apart, then time apart will fix it. If he's on his way out slowly and this is his chickens*** way of doing it, then being apart won't change anything. However, you chasing him down the street (metaphorically speaking) DEFINITELY won't change anything. It'll only make it worse.
JR is spot on that by giving him space, you are not hurting anything and it will not change the outcome if he's already halfway out the door. If a man told me he needed space after not seeing me for two weeks, I'd give him all the space in the world.
A relationship should be about 10% of your life. Continue to stay busy and see what shakes out on the other side. Six months is still a relatively new relationship and talking 5 times a day is entirely too much IMO. No man can keep up with that pace and the pace of writing poem, sending flowers, etc, for long. A man starts to worry about keeping up the pace, and wonders if he can keep a V happy with living his normal life. All men come on strong in the beginning, that's why we need to put on the breaks (aka, let a day or two go between contact).
Men need alone time to rebuild testosterone to combat stress. Time and talking with their V diminishes testosterone. By giving him space, you are not only helping him to find his longing for you (if he has it), but you are also helping him to decompress.
With that being said, this is a time to evaluate whether or not you have been getting your own needs met. Do you like that he says he will call and he doesn't? Do you like the way he handles stress (i.e. that he doesn't see you for 2 weeks)? Do you like how he is treating you and how he makes you feel? Turn the focus back on you and your needs. I don't think it's unreasonable to want a guy who is your boyfriend to see you more than once every 2 weeks.
You two live 45 minutes apart and do not see each other during the week--aside from tapering down the phone communication, I'm not quite sure how much more space he can possibly need. He does sound busy and stressed, but stress is an ongoing thing. If he's going back to school and has job related stress, this will be a stress load that he carries for months to years. He is perhaps not in a place to be in a relationship right now, feeling unsettled in his life. He is also showing you that this is how he handles stress and how a partner handles stress is part of compatibility. There's no right or wrong here, it's about what works for you.
The one time my M "needed space", it took him 2 days to see me (surprise visit) and 4 days to tell me why he "needed space". When he was laid off on his job, he said he'd see me on our date night (2 days away). I am all about letting someone "be', but don't lose your needs in the process. Not every man needs weeks and months of space when they are under stress.
Sending stress free vibes your way! I know it's tough (my ex M need a lot of "space"). xo
Thank you so much Jessicarabbit and AnnaKarenina. All your advice gives me a lot of peace.
I guess I'm hung up on the time frame. Reading the M/V books, I know I should leave him alone, and receive him warmly (what I tried to do on Monday), and let him set the pace. But the uncertainty at this point is making me nuts. I do have a very full life and have also been spending extra time at church and in prayer, but even with that, my heart is still aching and missing him terribly.
When this all started I said if he wanted to break up, we could just end it and no hard feelings, but he said no, he didn't want to break up, that he just wanted time to himself for a while.
I'm trying to remember that and take him at his word since he has always been honest with me, respectful and considerate. That is, until all this started. But even then, it wasn't with a fight, all very civilized. I guess if it's over, he'd let me know, right?
Anyone have any idea how long do these withdrawal/rubber banding periods can last?
Rubberbanding is when a man pulls away due to increased intimacy. It has nothing to do with stress--it is to regain his autonomy and, generally, it doesn't last that long (a few days).
Caving is what a man does under stress. He'll hang out with the guys, watch sports, read the newspaper...all so he can rebuild his testosterone and fix something. Caving is not the silent treatment for weeks or months and I don't think it's weeks or months of space.
I don't think your M is doing either of these. Yes, he is under stress but the cave does not come int he form of "I need space"--not like this. I think he is possibly uncertain about how to fit you into his life given his current unsettled situation.
Delfina, you keep asking questions that require a crystal ball to answer. I have no idea how long HE will take. The question you need to ask yourself is, "how long will I be willing to put up with a guy needing how much space?"
You have some power here. You are not a victim. You may not be able to control the outcome of this, but you can have dignity and only accept good behavior.
The thing is, men deal with time differently than we do. TODAY he may think all he needs is time. TOMORROW he may decide you are the best thing ever. Then again, he might decide he's better off alone. There is no way to know. So he may not be lying to you so much as not really knowing what he wants.
"Receiving warmly" doesn't mean taking cr*p either.
And even if he does turn around and decide you are the best thing since sliced bread, could you ever trust him to not run away and "I need space" again? It's been 3 weeks since he said those words, and even though he's apologized and misses you and saw you on Monday, he's still "needing some space". What does that even mean when you barely see each other as it is?
Keep the focus on you and like JR said, you do have a BIG say in this. You are not on the sidelines waiting: You are a V with needs and must continue to evaluate if this M is giving you what you need.
There are plenty of Ms who have settled, less hectic lives who would be more than willing to let you in during stressful times and who wouldn't leave you dangling in limbo like this. No offense to this M at all as I am sure he is a nice guy with good qualities.
About a month of "space" in a six month relationship is 1/6 of that relationship. I understand you wanna give this a chance, but don't sit there and smile because you think that's what you should do. Be gracious in giving him a bit of space to do natural M things (rubberbanding, caving), but don't be a doormat. Men do not respect doormats.
Thanks so much to all of you who've offered advice. I'm very grateful.
JR, I apologize if it sounds like I'm looking for answers as if you're all a crystal ball. It's just that this is the first time I'm really trying to apply M/V principals to my relationship. I've made errors in the past with other Ms that I do not want to repeat, which is why I'm trying to be cautious, yet open-minded as the M/V books suggest, anticipating his return.
I guess I should clarify the 2 weeks we didn't see each other before this all started was because of my hectic schedule. I had to travel for work both weekends. We don't see each other during the week typically because he works from 7 to 6, and has class from 6 to 9, and usually just goes home, has dinner, and passes out. We'd spend the entire weekend together; he'd come over Friday night with clothes for the weekend and leave either Sunday night or go to work straight from my place Monday morning.
I don't know if it's fair to say that I'm "taking c**p" at this point. I am just waiting, though as I mentioned, I'm very successful in my field, so he probably thinks I'm busy with work and friends, as when he did call, I'd act easy, breezy.
I just hoped that maybe someone has been through this and would have more answers than I do.
As I said before, I am deeply confused.
Many of us HAVE been through this before, but there's no rule that says any guy who wants space will want it for 5.6 days.
It all depends on if he really just needs space or if he has one foot out the door. If I were a betting person, I'd say he has one foot out the door, but I don't have enough information to make that definitive.
I didn't say you were taking cr*p, but many, many women who read MV for the first time think that it's all about the guy, and that being receptive translates into "be a doormat and take whatever nonsense he dishes out." John Gray NEVER intended women to be doormats. That's why I'm saying that you have some power here and you don't HAVE to take cr*p. That being said, the ending may not be the one you want, but then again, it doesn't look like it will be anyway.
Again, a guess on my part.
I have been with two men who "needed space" and they needed space in very different ways:
The first is my ex M, who needed space to figure out his life and this was after years of being together. I gave him space for a month without contact. Then, we reunited and I put myself in limbo and later, took his distance to be caving, when it was really just bad behavior. I doubt he respected me in the end, because I was such a doormat. I had a full life and we had a long distance relationship, he was sorting out his life, but he'd always need space. I don't know how much more space a man can need when he doesn't see his V during the week and they live far away from one another. Honestly, I just don't know.
My current M needed space about 3 months in, so I gave it to him. He visited me 2 days later (a surprise visit) and told me 4 days later why he needed space. We've been together 2 years.
Look, my current M was working a full time job (sometimes 12 hours), taking night classes, had a regular guys night out and went to the gym regularly when we started dating. He still made time to see me regularly, without a beg or plea for space. When I was diagnosed with cancer (7 months in), he was still taking classes and working his full time job along with his hobbies and he took all of this stress in stride without needing space. He was laid off when I had just finished treatment and he still didn't need a lick of space--maybe a few days but he has never, ever hammered the point home of needing space.
I'm not trying to be a negative nelly, but I think a lot of Vs come to these boards hoping a man who wants space will change his mind. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. The focus of the V should be on what is she willing to take? How long will she live in limbo? Could she ever trust him again?
Thank you so much ladies. Well, I did have this experience years ago with a boyfriend and when he needed space it turned out he already had another girl lined up. However, even though he immediately went into a relationship with her he kept coming back to me, even years later after he married her, he'd still call me and tell me all sorts of ridiculous things about how he still missed me and dreamed of me blah blah blah, even though I'd always tell him to get lost.
Anyway...I'm really hoping this isn't the case now.
A few things: my boyfriend, from the first "space" conversation said there was no other woman and he was not interested in dating anyone else. I said, do you want to just break up now, and he said No, this is not a break up, just that he needs time.
So I see what you're all saying about not being a doormat, but I also don't want to be overly impulsive and impatient and just let my ego and pride take over because he's not giving me the time and attention I want and walk away from him if there is really some sort of potential of us getting through this period. I know it's a fine line.
Until this episode, I was totally happy and fulfilled with the relationship. He says he was too. I always told him I was proud of him, admire and respect him, and that he makes me happy. As I said, even though we usually only saw each other for the weekends, we'd speak all day long, so maybe it was too much, and maybe this is just about his reclaiming his need for autonomy?
The silence hurts. But I will not call/text him and demand answers. No chasing him.
Thank you again for your time and wisdom. It's wonderful to have found this network.
He reclaims his autonomy during the week when he doesn't see you, when you give him a few days to do his "man" things--like work, school, hobbies. He can even reclaim his autonomy in your presence by seeming a bit distant. Your M isn't caving or rubberbanding, IMO.
I do think the talking everyday was way too much.
In M/V world, we do not live in the potential of a partner. We evaluate what that person is and what he/she is doing right now, and see if it is aligning with our needs.
The stress he carries over being unsettled with continue for many months and possibly years, depending on how much schooling he has left and his financial situation. This is another thing to consider: Can you take months to years of this type of behavior?
Delfina, when I had this experience five years ago (although mine gave no warning, he just disappeared), I would've had a lot of patience for "needing space."
TODAY, I wouldn't have that same kind of patience. I *would* accept (with an open heart, I might add) "V, I need a week to sort out some things, will call you next Friday." Or "I'm going on a fishing trip with my buds, see you in a few days."
But I wouldn't put up with this nebulous, open-ended, "waaah, waaah, I need space" BS any longer.
I would rather be alone than to be with someone so weak and who doesn't know himself at all to accept that kind of stupid behavior.
That's just me.
I realize you aren't ready to throw in the towel, and I don't blame you. But DO give yourself a deadline as to how long you are willing to wait. Open-ended is weak, imo, and giving him the license to treat you badly. Give him another week, if you have to, but then decide you have more dignity than to wait around for some guy who *might* or *might not* want to be with you. And watch his actions. His words mean nothing if not backed up by actions.
What JR said. I have no tolerance for that b.s. Life's too short to live in limbo.
Here's a link to the limbo thread that my doormat self was a part of: http://www.askmarsvenus.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=15494&hl=limbo+thread
Also, you can search limbo and find many thread just like this one, with women who are patiently waiting it out. You can see that sometimes it works, sometimes it looks like it works (with men continuing their bad behavior off and on for years) and sometimes the guy bolts...or forces the V to bolt because he is too chickensh*t to end it himself.
Well... hello and welcome and big hugs to you
Based on the work schedule and class schedule you described, I'm amazed your M was able to have so many phone convos with you and wonder how he does his laundry, cleans his house, gets groceries, cooks and all the other errands we adults have to take care of? If he is then packing a bag and spending the entire weekend with you, he probably doesn't know if he's coming or going here!
I'd say his request for space is even possibly to take care of all the built up things he needs to take care of in having a schedule like this! He's probably also thinking logisitics on how he can keep it up, if he can't give this to you whether you will leave him, how to balance it all and how to "fix it".
That's my .02
Thanks Meandering. I thought that too-- he does have many enormous pressures, also given that he supports his family back home and has terrible homesickness that is always worsened by holidays (like Father's Day), and he gets quite sad. I was prepared to be in this relationship for the long haul knowing there would be challenges. I'm 34, support myself, and he would not need to think of me as another financial burden, rather we could be partners and build a life. But yes, he did tell me he need a few weeks to check several things off his to-do list.
I know our phone habits were totally excessive. His job requires him to drive around town a lot, so he'd always call from the car, and text in between, plus an hour or more each night before bed. All his free time was dedicated to me. I don't think we hit a rut but maybe we did. Like I said, if I get another shot, I will do things very differently the second time around. The silence is now deafening though.
Much gratitude to you all.
D.
Delfina -
First of all I totally empathize with your situation - it's rotten. In particular - I think it's bad behavior that he's pulling this at 6 months after you've already grown attached - this sort of behavior at 3 months time is so much easier to deal with and walk away. But it's done and not much to do at this point about it except remember that you and your self-respect and self-esteem are more important than any man! I am new to the boards...but here's my 2 cents...
I first read the M/V book about 10 years ago when I was in a 3 year relationship where looking back on it I believe (as do friends and family) that I was in a somewhat emotionally abusive relationship with a complete narcissist (easy to say now - not to at the time - also not easy to recognize at the time) - i made the mistake of reading the M/V book and using it as an excuse for poor M behavior...
Today I'm reading the book with a very different perspective. I picked it up again because I'm with a wonderful man who loves me and has never given mixed messages - but we've had our share of communication problems and understanding eachother problems at times of stress (and we've had stress....his mother is dying across the country of cancer, he's self-employed as both a photographer and real estate appraiser which makes for an insane schedule and lots of last minute jobs and plans changed, AND i went from having a very lax post-doc job to being first year full time faculty and having little to no time from sept to may of last year) - and during that whole time - we never went more than 5 days without seeing eachother unless one of us was out of town for work or family.
I will say that too much time can be bad - and i wished i'd paid more attention to the M/V book earlier in our relationship - because we live in the same town (even though we randomly met at a party a few towns away) so it's very easy for us to spend tons of time together and within a couple months he came to me one night over dinner and mentioned that he might need some more time for himself....which i now understand much better - but that never means that he doesn't want to see me for weeks on end...it's more that he's swamped and overwhelmed and needs more time to decompress and do for himself...
i guess my point is that there is a difference between a M's normal M needs and just poor behavior...and in my opinion...while he has tons on his plate right now and perhaps really does need time for himself...leaving you hanging like this (especially after an intense 6 months) is poor behavior and inconsiderate of your feelings...just food for thought...think about how he'll behave down the road when he is stressed? can you live with this type of behavior?
best of luck! the boards are great - i'm finding it very helpful in sorting through my own issues and how to communicate with my M and grant him time for HIS needs while also meeting my needs....
Sorry, I to add this--- I meant to include it earlier-- I understood the "wanting space" thing from the start but most of my confusion now has to do with the fact that we saw each other on Monday and it was so beautiful and sweet and I was sure that we'd made it over the hump by the way we fell into an embrace and kisses and he had that same love-grin he had for me in the early days, and was saying very sweet romantic things too. And now....nothing. It's been 3 days.
Do you have plans to see each other this weekend? If so, he is probably tending to his life--laundry, errands, etc.
The entire "I need space" thing aside: An intense romantic time on Monday and a few days without contact would be an example of rubberbanding.
MK, No, we have no plans for this weekend. He called me on Monday after seeing me, sounding giddy and delighted, saying he wished he'd had more time to spend with me. He said he'd call me. And never did. Now it's Thursday. I guess there is still a chance he will call in time for the weekend but so far, nothing.
Go ahead and make your own plans for the weekend. Set up some time to see your friends, get a massage, take a trip to visit family, clean out your closets...
Even with the date you two had on Monday, you are still in limbo if he hasn't set anything up. It sounds like the space between relationship and breaking up. I mean, you didn't agree to be exclusive with him to not see him. If I was in your shoes, I would probably tell him that--but that's me.
It sounds like you had a pattern of seeing each other on the weekend and only the weekend. Now he is coming and going as he wants. If he does call you on Friday, for example, let him know when you two didn't set anything up by Thursday that you went ahead and made your own plans.
I don't know if he'll call or not, just that this is a way to let him know you like plans to be made in advance.
Hi Delfina. Welcome and I'm truly sorry you are going through this. I hope, for your sake, he contacts you with an explanation - with any outcome. The not knowing is worse.
It took me many, many years to understand my actions in a relationship - but also about a relationship. I honestly don't know what happened recently for the light to come on. But I see things so much clearer now that it's like night and day.
When I read what you write, you sound like you are coming from a place of, "What's going on with him," or "What's going on with us?" I know this place very well. The other Vs who have been posting on your thread are trying to explain that this is not the place to be (though I don't want to put words in their mouths). You should be coming from a place of, "What's going on with me. What do I need to be happy right now?" The phrase often used here is "you are the prize". Step back and act like a Diva for a moment. Get that finger waving (like Karen on the show Will and Grace) - "What's this, what's going on here?" Turn this situation around. Come to the place where it's no longer about him needing space. Start feeling like the prize he needs to win. You are too good for someone to treat you like this. Start feeling that he's not good enough for YOU.
Sure, maybe the calling/communication was excessive, but that's the past and currently it's about his behavior. Go do the things you normally do in life with your head high and put out some energy that you demand to be treated a certain way. Accept nothing less.
We all know what you're going through right now is VERY hard. Lots of hugs and wishing you the best outcome.
Definitely a fantastic post Hope!!!!!!!!!!!
Why, thank you, MK and Meandering.
Thank you all, Hope, MandyKay, TryingHard, and others, so much.
I am definitely going about my life, being productive, working, I just ran for an hour at the gym, and have plenty of friends to fill up my weekend. But it doesn't take away the pain inside, the longing for him, and the sadness I feel at the thought of losing him. I have been through many relationships. If it were so easy to turn on my "Diva" switch, I'd have to be a much more callous woman. I have deep and profound feelings for him, and while I am entirely self-sufficient in other ways, I appreciated very much what he brought to my life. I know the common advice is to kick him to the curb and get over it, there are more fish in the sea, etc. But I don't get into relationships easily, and only do when I feel they have true potential to be great. He knew that. So I am kind of in mourning. At the same time I go over my M/V books and read the part about the Wise Woman is the one who waits patiently and without harboring anger or making needy demands while the guy is figuring his stuff out. So I don't know if I'm supposed to hold out hope, or give into the feelings of despair and just convince myself its over because that's what people are telling me, even though my friends' relationships were no where near as satisfying as mine was until we hit this wall.
I know what it is I want. I want him. I'm sitting here playing cool not contacting him and it's torture.
You said "He called me on Monday after seeing me, sounding giddy and delighted, saying he wished he'd had more time to spend with me." And, you most likely seemed quite happy and that nothing was bothering you; so how I interpret this is he is very, very busy right now and has insinuated that. Also, when you did get together with him, he warned you up front that it could only be briefly. He had a reason and I don't think it had anything to do with you.
He doesn't sense that you are upset about him needing space, so I think he is taking care of "whatever" and believing that everything is good between you two. Three days is not all that long and your reaction to him actually made him feel secure that he has more time from the relationship.
I think you are making too much of this and he has just put the relationship on hold for a little while longer. If not, I think his reaction to you would have been totally different on Monday. It was good that you reacted in a positive, accepting way to him. That was really important for when you do get back with him.
We Vs tend to make a mountain out of a mole hill by analyzing way too much. Stop doubting everything, accept the fact that he needs time and try to live with the "unknown" by feeling secure that nothing has changed in his feelings for you.
Based on your meeting on Monday and his reaction, allow him his space for however long it takes if he is worth it. It may be another couple of weeks, but I do believe he will come back. And, I also believe this will happen again, but if you can be patient, he will need to do it less as time goes on.
I think it is way too soon to know whether to fold or not. When he does come back, maybe he can share with you what was going on with him during this period.
I totally agree with this
The flip side to all of that is: you may not be okay with that little bit of time. And guess what, that's okay too. You may decide you don't want to make that compromise no matter how much in love you are. And that's okay too. After all, this IS about what you want and need too you know?
I actually don't think it's making a mountain out of a molehill when an M says he will call "Later or tomorrow" 4 days ago and never calls....not that I think it is over, I have no idea, I just think it's wrong to paint this as something that is typical or normal or acceptable for an M in a 6-month R to do, because IMO it's not.
I also want to say, I think it would have been better had you actually forced a little space on him earlier. If he works all day and then goes right to school until 9pm, and has 2 kidss, and gets home and collapses...when is he doing homework, laundry, paying bills, just relaxing? I don't think it is wise in this stage of a R to play weekend husband and wife, it can become very overwhelming, especially when an M has as much on your plate as yours does.
My M and I have been dating 8 months, and early on, maybe after 3 months or so, we fell into this pattern as well (we only live 15 minutes away, but we do not see each other during the week, because I get up very early). After a while, it started to make me feel like I couldn't breathe, and like we were in this 30 year old marriage boring routine already where we sat next to each other doing separate things on our laptops, I was in sweats doing laundry, etc. I felt I never had a chance to decompress. My M was very understanding (although not thrilled) when I told him my feelings and asked if we could step back..I stopped sleepovers, and we haven't had one in months. I see him some Friday nights, Saturday afternoon and night, and Sunday for a few hours late afternoon. It has brought a lot of the romance back....why are we always so anxious to rush through that stage?
I think you should wait a little while, but I do not think you should wait more than a week or 2 before YOU pull the plug if he hasn't contacted you by then.
Thanks dunnc, Meandering, and Jerseygirl.
To be clear, I never wanted/asked for more time than he was already giving me. We set that standard together. Not seeing him during the week was fine with me because I also have loads of work and like to focus on it during the week. Yes, he was a "weekend husband," but not because I pressed it. It was because my apartment is far more comfy, and it was just always that way. Of course, had I known any of this would happen I would have cooled things off from the start. But we were happy. I was happy and he told me over and over he was too. So I do understand the need to adjust to a new schedule. Of course when he was with me he spent time with virtually nobody else and mostly fell into my life but that's because I have lived in this city for ten years and he's only been here 1 year and doesn't have many friends, and just a few relatives he'd see now and then and take me along.
As for asking him to help me with something, unfortunately he as already fixed EVERYTHING in my apartment so if I tell him something's broken, he will know I broke it!
dunnc, I do hope you are right and that I am blowing this whole thing out of proportion.
One thing that consoles me is my father sort of did the same thing to my mom but it a much nastier way after they'd been dating 6 months. They didn't speak for 3 months. Then he came crawling back and they got married 6 months later. And they've been together 40 years.
So I guess anything is possible.
The whole Diva thing is hard for me to swallow. I'm very successful in my field. To me turning ego on full force is not attractive. I have a full life and everything I could want or need, materially-speaking. What's missing is the love and fun he brought to my life. No beauty treatment, new outfit, or sassy attitude can replace that.
If he does not come back I will probably go back to what I was before, extremely focused on my career, since that's one thing that doesn't go silent on me.
Delfina, I think you're confusing the "diva" thing they're trying to tell you with being narcissistic.
NO ONE is suggesting you turn into a total beeyotch, but what they're saying is after six months, there should be no place where you just ACCEPT poor behavior when it's given, that you should be evaluating HIM and his behavior and not just "sittin', and hopin' and wishin'" as the song goes.
I also don't think it's OK to go three days with nothing this far in, especially when he said he would call. I don't think that's a mountain out of a molehill, I think it's rude.
JR, I get it. But basically I am a Diva in that my life is totally great, and I have operated in the past the way that others have advised here-- getting impatient and basically dropping out of the relationship during that nebulous period of "space" and sometimes I wonder if that behavior is not too narcissistic as it's basically saying, "my way or the highway." That's way, after reading all the M/V books, I am trying to keep an open mind despite my Venusian logic and better judgment.
I wonder, if this is the end, why he wouldn't just say so. I gave him a way out with that first conversation and he didn't take it. Also, if he wanted to end it, would he have behaved the way he did on Monday when I saw him? Doesn't make sense...
In the past, I would have said, OK this isn't working for me. I can see you don't want this anymore. We're done. But how does a relationship have the chance to get off the ground? I should say my brother and his wife also split for a year when they were dating and got back together and married. Obviously there are tons of stories like these.
So, I don't know. He told me we are not broken up so why does it feel like a break up? Yes, his behavior totally SUCKS, but is it fair to weigh that against 5 excellent months or being a true gentleman and best boyfriend ever?
I'm the one who actually had the more demanding schedule considering my work took me out of town for a few weekends. Tomorrow is his son's birthday. I'm considering, if I don't hear from him tonight, that I might send him a text tomorrow about it and wishing him well (since I know it will be an emotional day from him, being an ocean away from his son etc). Thoughts?
Men who don't end it, do it because they don't want to be around a woman with strong emotions. I'm not saying this is him, but that's the excuse. Grown-ups have a break-up. Scared little boys just disappear.
I wouldn't send a text for HB. After four days and a six month r, I think it's oK just to call him and ask him what's up. Not in a demanding way, but in a how the heck are you kinda way. His reaction will tell you everything. You don't have to ask him to fix something, you could ask his advice or you just could call him as one would do in a r'ship.
Diva means "fine lady" or "goddess," not a demanding, hard, selfish, or insensitive person. I am sorry that you have misunderstood my message. For I never said to kick this M to a curb, nor to "get over it." I have never been fond of that term - it lacks empathy. Please know that our attempt with words to help or sooth your pain will never show the tears, saddness, grief and heartache we have all felt which brought us to these boards. Please know that we all understand your pain. I have come to learn that when I find myself in this position, finding the "what" that would make me feel better is far more important than the "why" in his behavior. Again - I'm not suggesting to kick him to the curb or get over it. I am suggesting to put your focus somewhere else. He is, isn't he? He's taking care of himself so that he may be a better person to say - hmmm - take care of his relationship with you. Namaste
Thanks everybody. You're all so generous with your time and wisdom, and sharing your experiences. I am very grateful.
The question now is, what do I do? Just continue the silence, not contacting him as I've done? Or do I try to make contact and get information?
Well if it was me, I'd be calling him and saying "what's up?" As JR said, his reaction will tell you everything.
He's had almost 3 weeks of "space" honey. Enough is enough.
I wouldn't be putting up with this any longer. Been there, done that, didn't work. But that's just me.
Maybe it's just me, but I think it sounds perfectly reasonable that he needs space at this point. You last saw each other 3 days ago on Monday for a few minutes, correct? Three days is nothing in guy time. The two weeks prior to that were admittedly scheduling conflicts.
After you described his schedule and then your weekend get togethers, I was scratching my head wondering when he has any personal time for himself, much less when he has time to do his homework or write his papers. He could easily be having finals (they happen around this time of year) or any other assignment that requires a lot of his effort and attention.
I could easily see, where, by hanging out the entire weekend when all of the rest of his time is dominated by school and his job, he would start to feel smothered. I don't think it has anything to do with you--I just feel that anyone with those kinds of demands would need personal downtime and more balance.
I think being at your place, though I'm sure filled with wonderful happy memories, is another time when he has to be "on" rather than being able to fill his personal tanks. Have you thought about stepping back and seeing him one night a week for a date rather than spending the entire weekend together? I like how jerseygirl handled her situation and brought the romance back in.
I know I'm in the minority here, but that's just my two cents.
HL, I don't think *time* is the issue that she has, nor do I. It's normal to want time.
My issue with this, and as I've said, I've been through this so my responses are colored with that experience, is the total lack of communication, and even doing the opposite of what he said he'd do.
When a couple has established a routine of a certain number of calls, in person dates, etc., that routine will eventually settle down into a more normal and easy give-and-take. The guy will not pursue as ardently as he did in the beginning days. That's normal. It usually *relaxes* into normal.
When the routine suddenly changes without much explanation, that causes women to feel anxiety because they don't know what went happened. Yes, he said he needed more time, but he also said that he'd call the next day and he didn't. Previously he was good about calling. After an extended period of "needing space," he's now incommunicado again.
Anxiety comes about because not only has the routine suddenly changed, but the communication also stopped as well.
Then the cycle starts of the woman wanting to be reassured, then the man feels hounded, then the woman needs MORE assurance because when he feels hounded he goes further in the cave, which causes her more anxiety and need for more assurance.
If men would understand that all it would take for a woman to be gracious and generous with him needing his time alone is a simple, "I need (x amount of time) to get my stuff together, I'll call you next (day, week, month, whatever)" then followed through with it, a lot of anxiety would be relieved and he'd get what he wants as well.
Well, a bit of news this morning. I was very sad last night and woke up extremely sad this morning.
I sent him a text saying: I don't understand your silence.
He replied: I understand myself. Sorry for not explaining.
I then called him and it went to voicemail.
So I texted him back: I can't read minds. All I see is the wall you've built between us. The right thing is to tell me your truth. We were always honest with each other.
And he has not responded.
So I guess that's that. I take it as the end, as he has basically killed everything we had with his actions. I don't know by the obscure language of his text if this is his idea of breaking up with me or just biding for more time and "space." I'm just curious on that end, as to what to expect from him-- a reappearance, or a full disappearance. Of course on my end, I am just done.
If it were me, I would not give him any messages whatsoever about his son's bday. Nor, would I contact him and demand "whatsup." And, I would give him a whole lot more time. If he stood you up in the past or treated you badly and then disappeared, then my feelings would be different about this. I believe in blowtorching, but I also believe that a guy will get too close and overwhelmed and have to step back and feel some autonomy. Guys are different than others. Some need more space and I don't think we are being fair when we give a timeline of when we think 'they should be over it.' We can't guess what another human being will do or what they are thinking, but with his actions in the past, I do believe you can feel secure that he just needs this time for 'whatever.'
My daughter has been married for 10 years now. When she and her husband were dating, he kept talking about moving back to his home town. She didn't know what to think about the future with him and didn't say anything to him about it. She just tried to enjoying dating and keep her fears at bay about whether there was a future with him. She went on a cruise with some friends and he said he didn't like cruises. It made her start wondering if he was the man for her. I don't know how long they had been together when she called me and was really upset. He wasn't contacting her at all. I suggested that she do things for herself and just hang tight. I let her talk to the boyfriend I had at the time who reassured her that men do need time and most likely his feelings for her hadn't changed. I don't know how long it was before he started calling and seeing her again and then proposed sometime after.
I don't want to suggest that your M would come back and do the same thing, but, I can bet you when he does come back, his feelings for you will be that much stronger.
Hang in there and just keep busy.
dunnc,
I understand what you are saying. I completely agree that we cannot guess what is going on with another. However, there's a big fat line between bad behavior and giving a man space. It's true that some guys do deal with stress and needing space quite differently, but this type of space isn't working for the OP. That's all that matters to me. I dont think she's being presumptuous either, because that wouldn't work for me either. How stressful to wonder if a man is gonna do this again? To wonder where the relationship hangs? At this rate, my spidey senses say no matter how "full" this Vs life is, this man has killed every single inkling of attraction based upon his childish obscure and distant behavior. He was halfway out the door and he's too chicken to pull the plug--or he hasn't realized he needs to pull the plug. Dating is about finding a partner that works for you, rather than against you. Like I said, this is not working for the OP. I am lucky to have an M who hasn't left me dangling for more than a few days, who hasn't asked for "space", who can take the heat of the pressure cooker of life without melting and dissolving our relationship and the attraction I have for him. Having been in limbo myself and facing a lot of other scary things in life, my opinion may also be clouded by my experience... and my opinion is an ambiguous text about how "I understand me. Sorry for not explaining." and leaving a V hanging in silence is total b.s. IMO
Healing,
Like JR said, time is not the issue here. Three days without contact at this stage is NO big deal. It's a good time for rubberbanding, and for the V to tend to her life. However, when an M says he will call, and doesn't, and leaves a V hanging somewhere between relationship and breakup, that's just bad behavior. We don't fold our hands and act the good girls. Yes, this M has a busy life outside of his V, but does that mean it's her fault and she should be punished with silence and distance because he got into a relationship he couldn't handle? No way, not IMO. Couples make decisions like this together. Adults say, "Hey, life is rough, how about we only see each other once a week and see what shakes out?" (similar to jersey's experience)
I don't completely understand jersey's experience because my relationship follows a different path, so I've never had to pull back to no sleepovers, only "x" dates per week. (Not that I am saying one way is good or bad nor criticizing jersey--different people, different relationships) I guarantee, if it did need that that my M and I would talk about it together--like jersey and her M. My problem with this entire scenario is the M is absolutely not clueing the V in AT ALL. It's childish. I asked my M about the "space" thing last night and he says it never even occurred to him, even in the most busiest of times, to pull away and not clue another person in--if even a friend. "I understand myself" WTH does that mean??? It's obscure. That has no place in a 6 month relationship. I have danced the dance with a man who sent me obscure messages without explanation. Never, ever again. No thanks.
Delfina,
I don't think your text ruined anything that wasn't already ruined. You can make a lot of mistakes in M/V way and the right man will still be around. Like I've said, I dont' understand his messages at all. I don't understand that it appears everything is on his terms. Silence to this magnitude is punishment IMO and emotionally damaging. Maybe others Vs can put up with it, but does it work for you? That's all that matters. Clearly it doesn't. It wouldn't work for me either.
I have no advice on what to do next. He hasn't responded. He is keeping you dangling. At this point it seems that you are done and that's all you need to know.
There are few life circumstances in which I'd allow this behavior, so he better be dieing or something else better have died. Perhaps he does have a real reason, but it appears he's killed most (if not all) of the attraction and trust you have for him. I dont' blame you for being done.
BTW, you can always process your feelings through the feeling letter technique to get rid of those negative feelings. It's outlined in the original M/V.
I want to emphasize that no matter what you do, with the right M, it will work out. So please don't worry about whether you shouldn't, or should have, sent that text. You needed to, you did it, it's okay.
I would like to slap M with a wet fish for his obscure response and then refusal to explain or suggest a time when you guys could get together for him to explain. Geesh, the gall of that!
On another note, for now and for future reference: I have a 6 month rule It's at about that point, no matter what type of relationship it is whether it be romantic, professional, friends or other.... that the dirty laundry gets piled up and comes rolling out. The skeletons start popping up and the "real" person starts to present themselves. The rose colored glasses are off and .... how we travel through all of that "together" determines whether there is longevity and compatibility or not. You're at that mark and he's showing you himself. Do you like what you are seeing?
I also want to say that I really believe this M doesn't have time for much of a relationship with anyone. A good relationship requires a lot of things and the right timing is one of those. This may not be the right timing for him. I'm not suggesting you hang on or wait for the right time, I'm just trying to point out the obvious here. I would bet my bottom dollar he has let alot of the rest of his life slide during his relationship with you and I would bet that he's in a mess with the build up. Again, am not saying this to suggest you hang on and wait it out, am just trying to point out the obvious reasons why this isn't the right time for him.
I think it's a shame he isn't coming clean with that and sharing what he is going through with you, but M's tend to retreat to process this stuff and figure it out without the V quite often, especially in the early stages of a relationship and this is the early stages for you guys.
I'm sorry for your sadness and the hurt you are feeling and have major love hugs vibing your way As hard as it may be for you, leave him be. I know you deserve answers and you deserve an explanation, that is the right thing to do. See whether he is capable of doing the right thing here rather than forcing it and always wondering....while you prepare to move on and do what you have to do for you.
I forgot about your 6 month rule For whatever reason, it makes me laugh every time it comes up. The vivid imagery probably
Totally agree with the 6 month rule! At some point we see the real person...the good, the bad and the oh-so ugly...
Thanks everyone, for your support. It means a lot.
I don't really have any regrets. I am very sad, disappointed, and still confused, but it was a good relationship while it lasted-- he never expressed any complaints whatsoever. I knew he had a complicated life. I understand he may not be in a place to be with another when he has so many pressures. But his conduct now is shocking to me, and out of character with the man I knew. It has wounded me deeply. I felt profound anxiety all week, couldn't sleep, work, think. I texted him because I need an answer. And his non-answer is answer enough right now to tell me I can no longer count on him as a figure in my life. Back to the drawing board...
Of course Ms are inherently self-serving creatures, but it hurts that he knows I have a huge work deadline coming up in a few weeks and this emotional madness is sabotaging my productivity. I treated him with respect, always, and his distance is disrespectful. Maybe he wants me to hate him. I have decided this is the end, but I am still curious what he sees. The end? Or an endless pause until he gets the nerve to see/talk to me.
Most shocking is the fact that on Monday our reunion was romantic and blissful. And now this? How can a man be so hot and cold? How can he reconcile that encounter with his actions now?
A mystery. But I agree with all of you. I've got to let go and move on.
I'm sorry, Delfina. I hate that for you. I was really hoping to be proved wrong, believe me.
Do yourself a favor and be kind to yourself. Don't try to date again immediately. Eat what you want, hang with supportive friends, be as mellow as you can. Healing from it will help.
Men do have the capability of compartmentalizing a r'ship, making it all on one day and all off the next. I don't get it because I have a woman brain. Not all men do it, of course, but I think most have the capability.
Sometimes having an answer, any answer, gives you a way to move on with your life.
Even though I didn't have the same take as the other ladies given the time frame, even I think that his text to you--and then ignoring your call--was extremely immature and inconsiderate at best. How cowardly. I commend you in having set the standard for yourself as higher than this treatment.
Please continue to hold your head high. He doesn't deserve you. If he does come sniffing around again, remember that the ball is in your court. I am so glad it doesn't sound like you are one of the many women that would let him get away with this behavior.
I just know I'm going to get blown out of the water by this post.....so be it....
Everyone talks about MV on a Date, but no one really goes back to the very first book, "Men from Mars Women from Venus" book. In that Gray talks about a man going into his cave and if the woman follows, she will get burned by the dragon.
You guys keep thinking like women and keep thinking that men should think like us. Men do not give us the responses that we want until they truly fallen in love with us and want to please us. I can guarantee you that b/c you texted him by demanding to know what was going on, he saw that as you being very disrespectful. You are not allowing him his space and are showing him that you aren't trusting that he will come back. If you remember from that book, TRUST is everything to a man.
B/c of a woman's childhood, she may be crankier (be in her well) more than someone else who was raised in a loving environment. She will be insecure and not trust people in general. B/c of a man's childhood, he may have to go in his cave more frequently than someone who was raised in a healthier atmosphere. But, those traits can be overcome with women getting counseling and men getting their space when they need it (if it's not too serious).
Read Gray's original works, listen to his earlier presentations to audiences in order to get a handle on the difference between men and women.
I see your M snapping at you b/c you wandered in his cave showing that you did not trust that he needed to be alone. His confidence that you were handling this time apart was destroyed and you stepped in not allowing him to come back to you.
I'm sorry, but why do we have to get so upset if he doesn't call us when he says he's going to, yet the last time we talk to him, we could sense a big distance from him? THAT'S A CLUE Why do we have to have him right with us all of the time? If we could just let go and not be so hung up on him not calling us when he said he would, he would come back that much sooner.
I repeat, it shouldn't be a big deal if he says he'll call and he doesn't. My friend (girl) will tell me, "I'll call you" just before we hang up. She doesn't. When I talk to her again, I remind her what she has said and she tells me that she doesn't remember saying it. Why do we have to be so insecure if he misses a step? He certainly wouldn't think anything about us not calling when we said we would. He would just take it in stride and think that we are pretty busy.
It would be very nice if we could comfortably call and ask what's wrong, but we can't b/c nature has made the man the pursuer and the woman to wait until he pursues again. When we forget that principle, the man goes the other way. We have chased him off.
Quit thinking like women and try thinking like a man. What is a big deal to us, is not a big deal to them. And, some don't have a clue until they fall in love with you and really want to please you. If they aren't meeting your expectations of what you want from them, they are not ready to be in full fledged which means that you have to allow him to back off and pursue again which makes him want you that much more.
dunnc,
Everything you said is exactly right. This crap about "standing in your truth" is just an excuse
for behavior that lacks self control.
Women need to learn to leave men alone.
AK
Well, maybe I am lucky because my M thinks like a V
Delfina,
Take heart, I don't think you have totally blown this. He will be back for he has his image of you and I think his heart won't believe that you aren't the woman he was expecting you to be. But, be aware, he will be very guarded. Here is where you have to be very, very strong and tell yourself to feel secure about who you are and what you have to offer. And more importantly, LEAVE HIM ALONE. When we go into the cave after him, it takes that much longer before he comes out. So, when you thought it was taking forever, well, now it will be. Focus on you and your deadline, period. Take deep breaths and tell yourself this is just temporary. Your feelings will be like waves (that's what you experienced last night). You're going to feel up and then you're going to crash. Read the book I mentioned. It talks about women and the well. Again, acknowledge the waves, you will go up and you will crash. When you crash, that's when you most want to reach out to him. BUT, it will pass. Take deep breaths and tell yourself it will pass.
And, you know what, Mandy Kay. There men do think more like women. It depends on their chemistry and if they have been predominately raised by woman/women. My son talks about his feelings and really shares a lot that most men wouldn't dream of saying (he is in his 30s). But, his wife is very controlling b/c she is very insecure and won't allow him his space. He feels she has strangled the love out of him.
How long is a healthy amount of time to "leave a man alone"?
Because I did it for months at a time in my last relationship. Was that enough time? I'm being serious here. When do women say "enough is enough"?
I totally get caving and rubberbanding and how important it is to just let men "be" and and have their space. However, where do we draw the line on bad behavior?
More of a philosophical discussion as it's not an issue in my relationship.
I think everyone has a different tolerance level MK. For example, in THIS situation, had Delfina felt more comfortable in her understanding of the caving stuff, maybe she could have calmed her anxieties and found acceptance along with the patience to say "what will be will be" and to let go and let god. In that event, she wouldn't have "waited" per se but continued on with her full life and as time went on without hearing from her M, one would hope she would have moved on without him. How much time is entirely up to the individual and life circumstances. This isn't a perfect world
I think what we V's have to ask ourselves is HOW MUCH TIME am I willing to be in limbo? It's a cost analysis if you will. You have X time invested in the relationship and you are working towards til death do you part.... and you think this is the one.... how much time then should you give him? surely more than a few days, and possibly even more than a few weeks. It's all relative.
I think we V's get far too impatient and far too caught up in time lines, and whether he called or not when he said he would, and whether we should put off making plans for htis coming weekend ...in CASE he calls. That's bs...we should NOT be getting caught up in those things, but we do. We have far more power in all this than we give ourselves.
I agree with you AK that there isn't much point in contacting a man that hasn't contacted you.
I guess I am just hearing two different arguments here that don't support one another:
1.) Leave a man alone
2.) If a man hasn't contacted you, it's over.
Or do they support each other?
Really not trying to be argumentative here, just curious on the stances of others.
Well, I think you are probably right, if a man has not called it is not a good sign.
He may be reconsidering the relationship or it may be over. Either way, if a woman
calls, she is coming from weakness and that makes her even less attractive to the man.
I'm laughing at Annakarenina's post.
There can be no timeline. It is when the V decides she's had enough. She is the one who has actually experienced everything--good and bad. And when the good outweighs the bad, I think there is still a chance.
I made that individual call after 6 years of being with D. He needed lots of cave time and I gave it to him. Through it, I suffered bouts of insecurity and control issues. It was a rough time b/c he was always gone. But, what I saw when I allowed him his space was it brought him a whole lot closer to me physically and emotionally. I could see the transformation in that he tried to please me (for the most part).
His great flaw was he was a financial disaster (he definitely needed counseling, but his male ego would never allow that for him). I had enough when I felt surprising good about being on my own without the fear of being alone. I had enough when I realized I couldn't change him to become the man I wanted him to be. Do I regret those 6 years? Absolutely not. It was such a learning experience for me and I would not replace that with anything.
Who knew that D could not over come his financial ineptness? Who could tell me the bottom line about him and have me believe that he could never change? No one could, but experience did. It was a lesson that changed how I felt about myself. I feel that was priceless. Very much worth the $12,000 I lost to him by trying to help him overcome his weakness. If I gotten on here and asked for opinions, it is obvious what the advice would have been. But, would I have listened? Absolutely not. Opinions and shared experience is everything, but nothing to someone else.
I still have love for him and am still very attracted to his image in my memories. And, when that love feeling pops up surprising me, my mind will immediately think of all of his ways of being a financial mess. What I have realized is that we don't get over someone very soon. It's been 2 years next week since I broke it off.
I think sometimes it's very easy to tell if someone is in a deadend relationship, but some like Delfina's, there's a lot of positive aspects leading up to the stalemate (the M pulling away), which is hard to judge whether to let go or hang in there. But, we really don't let go. Most of the time, we keep picking and picking (contacting/texting) until we actually create what we most dreaded--him breaking it off.
wow - so much going on there - not sure what to write...
I agree with ddunc that our calling and texting too much and nagging etc can cause what we most fear....in fact, i worried about this myself which is why i started reading the books and it's been helping me tons! (although i don't think my M would have broken it off - but i do think it would have lead us down a not so pretty road if it continued too much longer)
however - i really think that Mandy has a point...what is the line? if it is true that there is no time line...then what can we call bad behavior? is there nothing that we can call bad behavior? i think there has to be some point at which we can say - that was wrong...right? not that we have to tell them it was wrong...but it's ok for us to think it's wrong and to even vocalize that the M's behavior hurt us.
I also agree that a V's need to know if it's over can be tough - especially if there is just silence and we are left wondering...but i think that both M's and V's would agree that not knowing is tough! my M even told me a story of many many years ago where he was dating a V who pulled a 180 on him after a few months and it really though him and made him wonder why and he wanted to know - i think it's human nature. but while YES a V should be going on with her life....i STILL think it is extremely inconsiderate for an M in a 6 month relationship to just cut off all contact and then send an ambiguous text like he did....
and i agree with previous posts on here that says the M/V book was meant to explain typical M behavior and NOT be an excuse for poor behavior....
anyways - again - no disrespect intended for other's views...but that's my 2 cents....
First of all, before too many generalizations start swirling, I think it's important to remember what Delfina said from her first post
Let me clarify what I meant about giving him the space he asked for, that doesn't mean Delfina's needs need to be ursurped, it could have meant that she responded to him by saying "No M" or she could have said "Sure M, take some space, but I expect to hear from you by X date"..... not suggesting for one second that she didn't have a say in this nor that she couldn't let her needs be known also.
AS for suggesting she gave him plenty of space, I'll concede that's a possibility but.... they were just together on Monday, of this week...........the fact that he didn't call her when he said he was going to became this week's issue and thus the anxiety emotional roller coaster ensued with that on top of him asking for space....
I don't blame Delfina for these feelings, nor do I think she was wrong to send the text. I do think her M's response was awful. I also think his mixed messages speak to this space he claims he needs and the feelings he said he was having. My point of repeating that is that he didn't just disappear, he was clear here. He clearly said "I need X because I am feeling Y." I think when any part of a couple makes that kind of statement the other half needs to take a step back also, and take that same space too and start to rethink things themselves. WE V's tend to start to over analyze it all and spend more time thinking about how HE feels about us instead of thinking about how WE feel about him. We worry HE is going to break up with us, instead of thinking that maybe we should break up with him.
Anyway.... I may be rambling now.. sowwy
I would feel yanked around, by this point...
And, Delfina, I am not advocating that you kick this to the curb...take your time here...I do agree with Meandering in that you should take the time to understand how you are feeling and wanting vs whats going on with him...
Just wanted to validate you...as I think I understand how his behavior might be affecting you...
I don't see this at all as a man/woman issue. This behavior IMO is deplorable on a human level, it is cruel, and I absolutely do not believe M's are inherently cruel.
Dunn, your gf may say she'll call and then not, we all do this casually, but would she stop answering your calls, tell you she needed a break from being your friend with no explanation, then meet with you and act like all is fine....and then end the meeting by saying "I'll call you later or tomorrow" then not calling all week, and answering your text asking why with deliberate riddles, then ignoring you when you called, concerned, letting it go to voice mail knowing full well she had her phone in her hand because she just texted you....would you still feel it was meaningless and just what friends do to each other?
Hi Everyone. Thnak you all for this wonderful discussion. I've just read all your posts after spending the day with a friend, having tea, getting mani/pedis, shopping, and just talking it all out.
To clarify a few things that I've read in the previous posts:
It has been 3 weeks since the first "space" conversation.
During the first "space" conversation, which I took quite well, speaking in a kind, understanding manner, I asked him how much time he'd think he needed and he said 2 or 3 weeks, and that we'd talk when I got back from my trip. I said, you want to just break up now? He said no. He just needs time and we will talk when I get back.
3 days after the "space" conversation, when I did not contact him at all, he called and told me that he did not want us NOT to speak. He said he wanted to feel free to call/text me and he wanted me to feel free to call/text him.
I went OUT OF THE COUNTRY for 2 weeks (isn't that enough space?), and called him only once, the night of the NBA championship final to ask him who was winning and chat about it. I sent a few texts that were just photos of the sights I was seeing, and he responded normally. During that one phone call he said he missed me, in a heavy tone, and said he'd been "thinking about things" and when I asked about what things, he said we'd talk when I got back.
When I returned from my trip and we saw each other, we instantly fell into each others arms, kissing, hugging, sweet nothings. He called after, spoke to me affectionately. I did not ask any questions about our relationship or his "space" period.
So I'm supposed to be cool with him kissing me passionately for 20 minutes telling me all sorts of romantic things, and then not calling for days? This after a 6 month intimate relationship?
I was hurt because it was totally contrary to our encounter. If some of you think I blew it by "chasing him into his cave" with this text this morning, you may be right, or you may be wrong. The fact is he has hijacked my life with his "space" crap and I was tired of speculating on whether he'd ever reappear or disappear forever and passively break up with me in that way, in order to move over the hump and get on with my work. Because I am not a cold person, I was unable to say simply, Que sera, sera, and move on without caring about him calling or not. I made contact. If that's enough to send him running, after 5 great months together, I think that's messed up and unfair.
Let me ask you this: Is it normal cave behavior to come out of the cave, see your girl, kiss and make out with her like teenagers, then go back into the cave and act as if nothing happened?
By the text he sent me back this morning, I don't think he had any intention of clarifying the situation and I would have been waiting a long time (or forever) for a verdict. Yes, I can go on with my life and have a full social calendar, but I am not made of stone-- I love him, and the pain would not dissipate despite my easy/breezy outward appearance. I also have the type of job that requires my full focus, and anything that affects my mood jeopardizes it. He knows this.
My friends point out that they think he felt inadequate with his unhappiness with his job/life instability compared to my professional success as well as our financial differences. They think he had already made the decision to detach from me and seeing me made it difficult for him to execute his decision, which is why he disappeared after our romantic reunion on Monday.
I don't know if this is rubber banding. Or the cave. And Yes, I have read all the books. I know the Wise Woman is supposed to sit tight and act totally unaffected. I never lost my cool on him. I never insulted him, cried, or said anything dramatic beyond "I don't understand your silence." If this morning's text was such a strategic failure on my part, so be it. But I could not live with the uncertainty. Now at least I know it's done. And on Monday morning I will get back to work with this relationship behind me.
He may come back. He may not. But even if he does I can't see him in the same light. Abusing me with indifference is more than I need to accept at this point in my life.
I am curious thought (because I am human) if this is really the end or there's going to be an Act III to this saga. I wonder if he's going to reappear. Make contact, after all this blows over and there's been a bigger block of time separating us. Any predictions?
To me, Delfina, you sound like a warm, giving, loving V that has her head together...completely agree with everything you wrote in your last post...I don't think you blew anything...I think you acted rationally, calmly...and you are right to question if he hangs the moon...
Predictions? Hmmm... well, I do like to believe that most people are inherently good and ultimately will do the right thing. That's part of the reason I'm the Susie Sunshine romantic around here. So, with that little bit of background on moi to filter accordingly.... I think he will be back with an explanation.
I think the whole thing just sex and I'm sorry for your loss and pain
And I wish you a fun weekend with lots of icecream and pedicures and perhaps a good workout to make things feel good again!
I still remember from about 10 years ago when I broke up with my M of the time of 3 years that i dealt with it by going to a good kick boxing class!!! felt bloody fantastic!!!!!!
take care of yourself!
What kind fo explanation could make this kind of horrible treatment okay?
Ok, whoa - time out here.
This M is NOT CAVING. So many people misunderstand the cave. Delfina, please listen, your M is not caving.
When an M caves, he tinkers in his shed for a few hours. He works on his car. He locks himself away and watches sports on tv. He might go fishing for a few days. He does not disappear for weeks, he still communicates with his v (unless he's away fishing, lol), he does not ignore his v.
When an M is caving we shouldn't try to have deep and meaningful convos with him, but that doesn't mean we should be too scared to ring him, or talk to him at all.
Why do so many people misunderstand the cave??? It's such a simple concept. Nowhere in his books, any of them, does John Gray advocate bad behaviour on the part of the M, nor doormat behaviour on the part of the V. Nowhere.
Delfina, there can only be an Act 3 to this saga if YOU let there be. I wouldn't be going back for more of the same. The behaviour that your M is exhibiting is weak, cowardly and callous.
jersey, I'm not suggesting his explanation will be okay nor make it okay, but I do believe he will reach out to follow up.... that is all.
Goodmorning everyone.
Aussiegirl, just to be clear, I never thought this was "caving," just accepted the supposition of others on this board that's what it was, though my original inquiry was: is this rubber banding or him wanting out?
Anyway, I am now having all sorts of revelations, regrets, and thoughts. I realize now that I made mistakes with this relationship that I've also made in others. After the M pursued me intently for a period of 2 or 3 months, I started giving back too much, so his need to pursue basically faded because I established that I was willing and happy to be with him. The routines of calling constantly, when I probably should have a ignored a few calls/texts in between or left them unanswered for a while. I probably shouldn't have always been available to make plans, and we got to the point where plans were just assumed rather than him asking me out or planning ahead for them. So he stopped having to work for me. I thought this is normal when two adults decide they like each other and want to be together. I didn't know how long I had to keep the seduction/pursuit game going. But a married friend told me yesterday that if you want to get married, you have to keep it going until the day you get to the altar, which I find a little sad in a way. And she even told me that's how you get your goal of getting a husband, but it leaves a woman feeling that she's never been truly vulnerable with a man and she even says she thinks her own husband of 4 years doesn't really "know" her because she had to be guarded in order to keep him interested. She even told me she envies my deep, passionate relationships even though they don't lead to engagements.
But, bottom line, with the wisdom I've gained from this message board and the M/V books, I see that although I thought I handled my relationship great and we were both super happy and fulfilled, I definitely mismanaged our time together. I made the mistake of falling in love while I should have worked to stay in control. It makes me sad that it is a power-struggle in some ways but I guess that's what gets some women into successful committed relationships while others end up on the love affair/failed relationship merry-go-round.
If I could do it all over again with this guy, I would do it all differently. The sadness I felt all week from the waiting was more because I was holding onto hope for him giving a sign that we'd be Ok. But after my text on Friday and his response, the sign is that we are over, so I've let go of that hope. But in the back of my mind I wonder if there's a chance, with some more time, he'll want to give it another whirl, or if he's lost interest for good. If he was rubber banding and I screwed it up by asking him about it, is the damage permanent? Or is there still a chance he'll return. I still get hung up on the fact that we were together on Monday in each others arms and then the cold backlash. If he felt nothing, would he have pulled me into his arms for kisses etc?
Forgive me. I'm still learning here...
I'm not holding out hope. And I will definitely take all I've learned into my next relationship. Not being as available, as easy to read, as forthcoming with my heart and feelings. I'm a warm, romantic, passionate person so it bums me out that I can't exactly express myself as I'd want to, but I guess that's the nature of this beast called Love, if you want the kind that sticks around.
Delfina -
Again, I am so sorry for your pain!
And it's strange that the other post where i fixed my funny typo never showed up..
Anyways - i want to reiterate what others have said...with the RIGHT M...silly "mistakes" you make won't send him running!! He'll stay with you because he loves you and knows you are trying and are human! Don't change who you are...just try to pay attention to the way Ms and Vs communicate...
the right M will love you for who you are
I really do feel your pain immensely - i've been there and sometimes wonder how i got so lucky to finally find a good M after years of waiting. i totally get that line from s-x and the city where charlotte says "i've been dating my whole life...where is he already!?!!!?" because i'm now 36 and when i met my M about 1.5 years ago i was in a place where i started to wonder if it would ever happen for me...
it can happen...the right M will come along...just be patient and true to yourself.
take care of yourself!! you doing anything good for yourself this weekend?
Delfina,
Please, please do not think if it as a game. It is not. Rather, you are holding yourself in high
regard, guarding you heart and letting the M do what he likes to do, win the prize which
is you.
I had a ghastly series of relationships until I got into MV. Once I got the drift, it
was all easy. My M and I will be together four years next month. We are very
happy. When we first got together he did all the planning, calling, etc. I was
multidating three or four other guys. It took me a while to get the drift of that,
but as soon as I did, it was easy.
I made a choice, using my head and heart rather than my eyes which was how I used
to do it. M and I have a wonderful, loving relationship with never a cross word. We
are a team.
I also know if he came home tomorrow and said, "Well, I am out of here" I would
not die, I would go on because I know how to do it.
AK
Thanks everybody.
I guess "game" is the wrong word. What I mean is that to not answer his call when obviously I want to, seems disingenuous to me. To say I have other plans when I don't, or not see him just out of the principal of making him desire me more, seems like a manipulative tactic. I know these methods are tried and true, but that behavior doesn't seem authentic to me and that's why it leaves me feeling a little bummed out.
And this idea that I am "the prize," while lovely and flattering, is a hard pill to swallow because I like to think (because I'm still naive) that the relationship and the love is the prize, and it's not all about egos and trophies and challenges and rewards.
I also can't date multiple people. I don't have the time or the energy. I have a very demanding career, plus I don't enjoy the random banter and BS of dating. Never have, and only date men I feel great connections with from the very start. I should say, I do hold myself in high regard. I am very successful in my field, have the admiration of many people, and have achieved all my professional dreams at a pretty young age. I am attractive, dress well, physically fit, and live a nice lifestyle. But I am shy. And I am very withholding and guarded until a man comes along with whom I feel a strong connection. After they pursue me, I give them a chance. But it's that 3 month or so period after they win me over that I have a problem at. At that point, I'm "in." If I'm not in love at 6 months, I quit. I could never date someone aimlessly for a year or so just for kicks or to see what happens. I've done it in the past and it just leaves you feeling very, very empty.
But obviously, I've been wrong about everything.
Like I said, I'm still learning.
Delfina...I do think you have learned how important it is to pace, guard your heart with a young relationship...its not about being gamey, but understanding differences between men and women...for instance, all of us have learned the hard way about blowtorching behavior...when you are aware of a Ms natural tendancies, its is much easier to navigate thru...
I also think its easier to pace when you other love tanks are full...you are not playing games then, you are seriously busy and not quite so available all the time because you life is rich and full...maybe this is a good opportunity to take up a hobby, volunteer, make fun plans with friends, etc...explore your own interests a bit...
M/V principles IS about paving the way to a close, passionate and comfortable relationship...as you move thru the stages, you gain more emotional intimacy, increased integration of time and lives...the early exclusivity stage is about evaluating if someone is right for you, how you both handle stress and communication...this relationship went from zero to 60 in a short period of time...in M/V terms, you went from early exclusivity to engagement...and HE handled it quite poorly, IMO...
With all that said, even when you follow the MV stages, there are no guarantees you will not get hurt...you can follow everything perfectly and still discover that the person you've been dating is not a good match for you...M/V guidelines are not effective when someone is emotionally unhealthy or unavailable...nothing will cure that...
I hope you don't beat yourself up too much about all this, like you didn't handle everything perfectly...you didn't do anything "wrong"...and it takes two to tango, Delfina...and he has responsibility here...as Sophia suggested , he may be back and now is the time to deicpher if you have liked what he's shown you...
Delfina,
I am now getting to you. I'm so sorry for your pain and I completely get it...boy do I get it. You are doing fabulous in recognizing the new techniques you are learning and in not shouldering all the blame.
As for "the prize" element, I also have a HUGE problem with competition and egos, etc etc. However, it's really not about that. Ms are hunters and they want the biggest trophy to mount on their walls. If he's the right M, he'll hunt down this V and make her his. AK's post really sums up the energy. Men don't want an aloof, cold and gamey V. Rather, they want a V who sees herself as quite a catch. It's the "catch me if you can" energy that makes a man wonder, "Hmmm... she's so special, she seems so special. What is it? I want a taste..."
M/V is great. Take what works for you and what doesn't and some Ms are more inclined to talk about feelings and recognize women's needs and other Ms are definitely more quiet. This is part of figuring out what you want. I knew from the get-go, when I got back into the game, that I needed a romantic M because I am not particularly romantic and I also needed an M who loved to talk about ideas, things and enjoy philosophical discussions. I enjoy silence but really could talk about ideas untli the cows come home. I also know that because of my abandonment issues, and I have been to therapy for these and overcome them so they are really just a soft whisper, that I preferred an M who wouldn't "poof" or make me wonder. While I take complete ownership of my issues, I recognized there was a need in me that needed to match the M. Anyways, take this time to get clear on what you need, were you getting it from this M? What do you want from an M in general?
Like anad said, don't beat yourself up here. A "mistake" like this will not bust it with the right M. I have made little mistakes. I have walked into the cave and been burned (mind you, I was on anxiety medication for medical stuff and had no clue wth was going on lol). M and I have had some fights early on where we both know that was just our baggage talking--and we laugh about it now.
Take care, Delfina, and enjoy your weekend being the lovely V you are
Delfina, I know you didn't think it was caving but I was shocked I guess at the number of people saying it was caving and making excuses for his appalling behaviour - I didn't want you to start to think "well maybe he is caving" because he's not, he's just rude. Lol.
MV isn't about game playing honey. If he calls and you can answer your phone - answer it. If he wants to see you and you're free - go! What Anad said is right on the money about MV. It's about ALL our tanks, not just our R tank.
It's much easier to keep the balance when all our tanks are full. And as Meandering said you won't be playing games because if you keep all your tanks full you will be busy sometimes when your M wants to see you. M's love V's with full lives.
Mandykay gives great advice too especially about how to frame communication with an M, these people are veteran MV'ers, they KNOW what they're talking about, please listen to them, which I know you are.
Hang in there, this too shall pass xxx
I'll try not to beat a dead horse, but I agree - this isn't about game playing. More on that in a minute.
And being the "prize" isn't about the ego. It's about a love from within your own being. Respecting and loving yourself so that YOU know you are worthy (the prize). It's not about someone winning you - you're not an object. I still claim I don't know when the light came on for me with regard to this, but I do remember moments not so long ago where I'd be driving in my car, crying because I couldn't understand why everyone else could find love except me. I'm no runway model, but I'm attractive, I have a great sense of humor, I'm smart (no Harvard grad, but...), I'm successful, have tons of friends, etc. And one day, I started getting mad (yeah, during a crying episode...again in the car), and I started yelling. "I am worthy of having someone just as much as anyone else! I am no worse than anyone else! I'm lovable. If you don't want me, "M," there is someone who will because I am damn worth it! I will not take anything less than somone wanting me as much as I want them! No more!" These episodes happened maybe 2 more times and that was it - - that's when I got it - - in my heart and soul, I believed I was a prize.
I want to touch on the notion of "keeping busy." Delfina sounds like a lot of us. She sounds VERY busy. She has pointed out many times how she fills up her time and life. Good for you, Delfina.
With that being said, I used to think I was very busy too. Still think I was back then (definitely am now!), but I think "keeping busy" isn't always a physical act, but a mental one. I used to always keep myself busy...but we Vs can be good at multitasking. Yes, I was busy, but I always found time to think, think, think, think, and daydream about my M. He and the relationship were the first things on my mind. If I were planning something non-M related, looking at my schedule, I first thought, "Hmmm...don't want to get together with "susie" that day because normally that's the day my M doesn't have his children. This day would be better." So, yes, we may think we're keeping busy, but are we still putting the M first - always first? I was then. Don't now. I've learned. My M is a priority in my life, but he is not my life - he's one aspect of my life. ....and this is where the game playing stops being a game...because you're just living your life. Delfina, I'm not saying this is you...this is just my experience. Just throwing out a different perspective.
Hope all this makes sense. I am completely brain dead from lack of a day off.
EXCELLENT post, Hope.
You described the difference between game playing and actually feeling worthy very well!
Thanks, Hope, for your great post, and also to all the others who've contributed so much to the discussion.
I certainly see what people mean about this notion of being the "prize" but I still think it's sort of arbitrary given that I purposely did not get involve with anyone for years while I worked on a major career endeavor knowing that if I had emotional involvement, it would disrupt my focus and my advancement would be compromised. As a result, I made leaps and bounds in my work life in a short period. I have enormous success and most people tell me men are intimidated by my accomplishments and the fact that I seem to have it all (except love).
And even when I started dating this boyfriend, a few people warned me that I was the one who had the most to lose- with my career momentum at stake. People always said he "hit the jackpot" with me. In some ways I see it, but I also felt very lucky to be with him. I admired him, respected him, appreciated his kindness, intelligence, strength, courage, and humor, while I was told most women would probably reject him based on his undesirable financial status. The "prize" thing goes both ways in my opinion.
I do open up to men when I feel they are certain in their pursuit of me, and there is a solid connection that I want to explore further. Hope, you bring up a good point that while my life is very full, my mind is still often very full of the M, no matter what I'm doing. For example, when I had to go to another country to receive a major award, I thought of him every second of the trip, wishing he was with me, rather than basking in the glow of the recognition. But I thought this was love. Love was wanting him to be part of my journey, not just focus on my own ego. No?
So why is it my duty to resist all these feelings and thoughts of love and dreaming of him, in order to remain self-focused, self-centered? What the heck is the point of love at all if not to let people in?
I don't come across as especially needy. But I do think our excessive phone calls (which he initiated) and our weekends together got to be too much, and as a male friend pointed out to me over dinner last night, he may also have felt "emasculated" by the fact that I'm in a better financial position than he is, even if on a subconscious level. At this point, who the heck knows.
But like I said, I am not made of stone. I do love him. That love doesn't go away over night. I don't hate him. I have compassion for him and all his life's complications. I regret that I mismanaged our time so that it got out of control but deep in my heart, I hope that we might have a chance one day to try again. Perhaps with a little time and perspective the feelings will remain. Or maybe they won't?
I was a workaholic before I met him and I have to go back to that way of life for now until my deadline. In September I will be able to get out and socialize more. Though socializing often leaves me feeling even lonelier as I yearn for those deep connections that are so few and far between.
Last night at about midnight I got a flat tire while driving through a very bad neighborhood. AAA told me they'd take 2 hours to arrive and there I sat alone in my car surrounded by hookers and junkies who kept coming to my window, offering to change my tire in exchange for drug money. I considered calling my (ex)boyfriend but didn't. I called another friend who arrived and changed the tire for me, and I drove home at about 1am in the middle of a windy rainstorm, alone.
It has been a very difficult week.
Last night at about midnight I got a flat tire while driving through a very bad neighborhood. AAA told me they'd take 2 hours to arrive and there I sat alone in my car surrounded by hookers and junkies who kept coming to my window, offering to change my tire in exchange for drug money. I considered calling my (ex)boyfriend but didn't. I called another friend who arrived and changed the tire for me, and I drove home at about 1am in the middle of a windy rainstorm, alone.
It has been a very difficult week.
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I may not be able to make this long as I am at my business. But needed to reply and give you a hug. Boy, when it rains, it pours! (no pun intended). Hang in there. I feel your pain...been there way too many times. My eyes are with tears, as I know what you're going through.
I might be misreading your post, Delfina, and probably should wait to respond when I have more time. But it still sounds like you might not understand that "prize" isn't a superficial thing - it's not about what we are - what achievements, how much money we make, who we know, how big our house is, how good looking we are. It's a feeling you have inside you about you. It's a feeling he has inside about himself. Yes, it goes both ways. Maybe other posters can help....I'm thinking "prize = self-confidence/worthiness/self love/self acceptance".
And focusing on you (such as when you were abroad winning an award), doesn't mean you're self-centered. It means YOU think you're worthy of focusing on you.
You sound so much like me (and I hope that's not an insult ). Men and friends could never understand why I wasn't with someone - I appeared to be a prize/catch. I came from such a poor background (and I don't mean, one-car-family poor, I mean no-food-in-the-frig poor...and one time we didn't even have a frig), but I managed to pay my own way through college, bought three properties on my own, and now own a business - am funny, kind, giving, so why, they'd ask, am I not with someone. So, it's something deeper we're doing or something deeper about our behavior.
I think the best thing you're doing for you right now is being on this board and working it out. It was after I joined this board when I had my crying/screaming episodes in the car. And I think my turning point. The guy who brought me to these boards did me in (well, not him, my relationship with him - my thoughts of my relationship with him). I will ALWAYS cherish that pain and memory - - it's what brought me to where I am now. So, think of this experience as the turning point and things will only get better. They will! Hugs!
Hope
P.S. Am proud of you for calling your friend and not your exM!! You're so getting this.
More warm hugs heading your way Delfina! Geesh what a fiasco with the car and such a startling moment to feel that feeling of being alone. My heart goes out to you!
Thanks Meandering and Hope.
Regarding "prize" mentality, I'm just confused because I have no self-esteem problem. I do not feel "unworthy" of anything. I have a wonderful, healthy view of myself. I have spent many years alone by choice and others in relationships and have always felt fulfilled with my life's path, my accomplishments, my work, my experiences, and my passions. I have an amazing family, great friends. I am financially secure, have good health etc. This "love" for oneself that you describe is not something I have an issue with or am in deficit of. I have no problem attracting men and getting into relationships when I want to-- the issue seems to occur at the 3 or 4 month mark when I start to really let my guard down.
Meandering, you say you are vulnerable with your M but that is the opposite of most of the advice I've received here which is that one should never put all your cards on the table and essentially be fully present in the relationship, and should always be just on the M's fingertips, almost out of grasp, until exclusivity or whatever is achieved. Kind of contradictory, no?
Yes, my M did not go on the award trip with or many others because 1) I thought it was too soon in the relationship to invite him and it might make him feel pressured, and 2) Because he does not have the money to buy plane tickets and I wouldn't dare offer to pay. (My airfare and hotel is paid by the people presenting me with the award, etc.). And when I'd go away and miss him, it's because I realized all these recognitions mean nothing when you have nobody to share them with. And I don't do my work for the "awards," I do it because I'm one of those lucky people who've make a living doing their passion. But work is work and when I'm not working I don't like to think or talk about it, and quite honestly, Hope, you say being the "prize" means focusing on myself. I'm bored of focusing on myself so much! I preferred to think of him and look forward to our time together because he made me so damn happy.
That's why all the excessive phone calling between us, the weekends together: Because he made me so happy. I didn't drop other things in my life for him. I just chose him most of the time (except when family was in town) because he made me so happy. Most of my friends are in relationships so when I wanted to see them, he usually came along and got along well with them.
I don't think he was intimidated. I think the fact that I achieved my goals perhaps was a subtle reminder that he hasn't achieved his. And maybe that became tiresome.
Anyway, I still have no idea what went wrong in my relationship, and God only knows if I will ever find out. I do hope my M calls at some point in the future. I hate to think I could share 6 months with someone and then they just disappear, but I guess anything is possible.
Delfina, I think you could really benefit from using a coach at this point. A coach can help you figure out how best to respond and what to say to him and get some clarity. Honestly it really doesn't sound like all is necessarily lost to me, but you could probably use some one-on-one professional help figuring out what your next moves are.
Hugs to you...
Well, it sounds like you feel pretty confident and are on solid ground in your life. That's wonderful. Maybe this situation is just what it is. There are no answers and sometimes things just happen - and not the way we hoped...for whatever reason...and eventually we may or may not find out what that reason is, but simply have to trust in the universe that things will get better.
I agree with Shamal with talking to a coach. I wish you the best and hope that you continue to post your progress or any news about this M or other new Ms.
Great post, BTW, Meandering! And thanks, JR.
Hope
I'll just clarify a few points and then I think I'll step out.
Many of us here are accomplished at what we do and who are are. The one great equalizer is that most of us got here because we were leveled by behavior of a man. Many times we contributed to it by not knowing how to communicate with one. Sometimes we were in the dark.
Meandering is vulnerable to her guy, but they live together and have been together for more than two years, which is not the same as entering into a r'ship. And vulnerability is fine in stages of a r'ship.
That is NOT the same as protecting yourself from the behavior that many men exhibit naturally - which is to get all excited about a woman, pursue her ardently in the beginning, then suddenly change his mind one day and drop her and move on. That's why we suggest guarding your heart until a guy has truly EARNED his right to be there over time. If you've given away everything to him early, you will be devastated.
Time and consistency are truly the only ways to judge a man because most of them can be good in a short period of time. It's over months and years that shows what they're made of, and how they'll react to trouble.
If you're bored with focusing on yourself, although in my opinion you didn't understand what Hope was trying to say, then go ahead and focus on him all day long. It won't make you feel any better. It will just make you spin more into, "why?" The "it made me happy" thing feels good. The constant calling feels good. The being together all the time feels good. I've been there. Even if he's the one initiating the contact and getting together. Even if he's swearing you are the world's most wonderful woman.
But ultimately, the r'ship didn't work. So why do we cling to doing what doesn't work?
Most of the time, women will hear from men again. In my experience and that of my real-life friends who have been through a break-up with a cowardly man who really didn't break up but just slithered off, no, you probably won't. Unless he's a sociopath, he's no doubt feeling some guilt and probably won't own up to it. You might run into him at some point, but I doubt he'll initiate anything on purpose.
I've also discovered recently that realizing your own accomplishments, having a healthy self-esteem, etc. are NOT the same as truly loving yourself. They are different. Waaaay different.
Thanks everyone.
I do see what you mean, regarding loving oneself. I'm in a strange position where my mind fully understands this end was probably inevitable given our differences and my carelessness giving myself over so fully so soon (the opposite of waiting for time and consistency), etc. And that probably in the greater scheme of life this is a blessing as if I'd stayed with him I'd have a lifetime of baggage, etc. and he would have probably run out on me sooner or later.
But my heart is still wounded. I wake up several times throughout the night with memories of things that were probably clues about our relationship being doomed. It's saddening. And usually followed by worry and doubts that I won't meet someone else, that I will be alone forever, etc, and never have the dream of a husband and a family, and end up just married to my career.
I have learned a lot on these boards. And all your insights have proven extremely valuable.
Shamal & Hope, I did actually talk to a coach last week before I texted him when I was just waiting to hear from him. She'd advised me to wait another week before initiating contact but I couldn't wait that long, as it turned out.
JR, I agree with you. I think the nature of the way he chose to exit my life shows he wants to disappear, not keep any kind of door open for future contact. And our circles don't cross so I doubt we will run into each other ever again.
Spent yesterday at the gym and getting body treatments spa, spoiling myself. Today it's back to work, and I have family visiting this weekend so I hope to keep busy until the pain dissipates some. I will let you know if there are any further developments to this story, like him calling or something. Or, in the event that I meet someone new, I will certainly carry all your wisdom into the next story and hope for a better outcome.
Peace & gratitude.
Delfina
I will apologize as I have limited computer access and it takes time for me to be able to catch up with what is said.
I stand by what I said about the cave man theory. I think when you compare your relationship with somone else on this board, it very unfair. Your M may not have had something bothering him that sends him to his cave. One V may not feel she wants the weekend marriage arrangements and there is nothing wrong with that, as long as she and her partner are in agreement.
Delfina, you said you spoke to a coach who told you to wait another week, but, you didn't. It's not really a surprise as we Vs cannot stand the unknown. If there is no such thing as cave time, why did your M respond to your text? If he didn't care, he wouldn't have given you any response at all. I see that he gave you a heads up in the beginning. But, what I'm hearing you say that it was too long without an explanation. Men can't articulate like we can. They do not know their feelings like we do. Some do, but the majority don't. He doesn't understand how important it is for us to be in contact and let us know what is happening. And, when he is in his cave, he doesn't care b/c that's the way he is wired. He is very focused and working on whatever sent him to the cave in the first place. He isn't a V.
When you think about it, the text was snippy, (but he saw you disrespecting his space), but still he responded. If he all of a sudden turned into a complete arse, he would have ignored your text in the first place. And, why would he turn into a complete arse out of nowhere? What would be the explanation? That you were too loving and you got to close? Pleassssse. He ignored your other attempts with voicemail, but being in his cave, he didn't want to deal with you at the time. Like I said before, he can't help it, but he doesn't have the desire to care. You just have to step back and wait for him to come back out of the cave from whatever he is dealing with. (Sorry for being redundant here, but I feel like it's all worth repeating.)
I still think he will contact you for I think he will be ready for the relationship again, but it will be very brief--only touching base with you. He will be on guard; using that time to see if its safe to enter your space again.
Look, as far as a relationship, you can be that fun loving self that you are, but you cannot, I repeat, cannot show a man your neediness when you are dating. And, that's what you did when you texted and left the voicemail. You did not allow him the time he said he needed. We Vs and bosses want a timeframe, but Ms don't feel that restriction. To them, time is timeless.
Hi Dunnc, Thank you so much for your post.
I agree with you in a lot of ways. I was impatient. But I just want to be specific about the time frame here so you can see what I was dealing with:
June 3: First "space" conversation. Says we should not talk/see each other, but this is not a breakup.
June 6: Texts me: "I didn't want it to be this way." I respond: "I don't know what you mean."
June 7: Texts me: "I understand you don't want to speak to me but I want to speak to you." I reply: "Do you remember what you told me the other night?" He replies: "yes, I'm sorry" and then calls me and apologizes and tells me he wants us to talk, but needs time alone, about 2 or 3 weeks.
June 8-20: I leave country. We text sporadically. Speak on phone once. He says he's been "thinking about things" but is nonspecific.
June 21: During his workday, we meet for 25 mins or so. At first he does not want to kiss me, 5 seconds later we are in each other's arms hugging and kissing. All appears back to normal. He calls later and seems happy and normal.
I do not hear from him again.
June 24: I text: "I dont understand your silence." He responds: I understand myself. I'm sorry for not explaining." I call him. He puts it to voicemail. I do not leave a message. I send another text: "I only see you've built a wall between us....We've always been honest with each other."
He never responds.
Do you really think I chased him into the cave? I think I was pretty good about giving him his space. But how long was I expected to wait? He was so full of mixed signals. I also don't know if with his last vague text he meant that was the end. But that's how I took it. Sadly. I know you say he wouldn't have responded at all if he didn't care, but he stopped responding in the end. Also, many have suggested this was just his chicken way of getting out of the relationship, and dumping me without having to confront me. What do you think?
Yes, the coach told me to wait but since I was getting no work done, I needed a response so that I could move on in my work. I cried all weekend but now I am back on track. I won't contact him again. Though I am nervous at the thought that he's disappeared forever and I hope you are right, Dunnc, that he will be back, at least to make contact and take it from there. And you can be sure that if that does happen, I will in no way display neediness and will take all I've learned here.
Meandering, I am currently reading the book you recommended and learning all about "love tanks"
Some of my friends say he's gone forever. Others say without a doubt he will be back.
I just don't know.
I'm not saying I'd take him back but I would hear him out, for my own peace of mind.
Glad you got the book Delfina! Yay for you I'm actually reading it again too, righ now.
Hi Hope. Thanks for responding.
I respectfully disagree with you about my being selfish as he is fully aware that I'm confronting the biggest deadline of my professional life and if I don't complete this project in 4 weeks I put my entire career at risk. His timing is incredibly selfish. I was just trying to make the best of what was in front of me.
I don't see how in the face of everything, my one text is enough to chase him into a cave and away from me forever. Is that really what it comes down to?
I know we can't see or feel how another person feels via email, so I do want you to know that I am SO on your side. I'm not saying you don't realize this, but I want to ensure you know that I am so empathetic to your situation.
But, sweetie, as much as it seems like his behavior is being selfish because he knows your work deadlines - - he is not responsible for how your life/work/family/whatever unfolds. You are. You are responsible for handling your emotions/mood in this situation so that it doesn't affect your work.
Again, Delfina, I know, I know what you're going through. My entire life would be jeopardized when an M did this to me. My life stopped! But that's not their fault. So, these Ms HAVE to stay with us or not take care of their needs because our lives fall apart if they don't? Again, Delfina, sorry to say - - that's selfish.
Once I learned this was about me and not about the Ms I was with everything changed for me. I may feel pangs of pain when I haven't heard from my M (that happened in a recent episode), but the moment is so short now and it doesn't make my life (or work) come to a standstill anymore. Like I said in a previous post - because the M is no longer my life. He's a part of it.
Hugs!
Thanks Hope. I totally get what you mean and thank you for your support. I know I took all this heavily and didn't get clarity until I was too far into the situation. I have many regrets. But texting him on Friday is not one of them because I was so shaken by his affection on Monday followed by his sudden disappearance. So maybe I'm selfish. And maybe he is too.
My question to you was based on that you said it was my texting him that turned it all around to the negative final outcome. Did I chase him away for good or is there a chance he'll return?
Again, that's a crystal ball question. No one knows but him.
And while I'm the biggest cheerleader around on taking responsibility for one's actions, feelings and words, I do NOT feel one text would've driven anyone away unless that person was looking for an escape hatch. Which this has always appeared *to me.*
There is only one person on earth who can prove which argument is true at this point, and he ain't talking. So all we can do is argue philosophical points.
Delfina,
Thank you for taking the time and spelling it all out for me. You may have posted all of this earlier, but when I was trying to catch up I did a lot of scanning.
It does sounds like he got cold feet about the relationship and everything was too fast, too soon for him. From the way you spoke, everything was great until it got too much for him and he needed to pull away. I still think he will be back after time away. Keep focusing on yourself and learning what makes you fulfilled. Who knows, if/when he does come back, you may feel different about him and realize he isn't who you want to be with.
Thanks JR, Hope, and Dunnc.
I'm definitely trying to be constructive about this, reading the MV books, reading other books, taking care of myself, spending time with family friends, in addition to my work. Also trying to accept that I can't predict or determine his next behavior, and might never know what really happened.
I guess there is no magic pill or even a book that teaches you how to get over the details that make break ups so hard, is there? Just the in-between moments like when I feel his absence in my home, or drive somewhere we'd go together, or hear a song that reminds me of him, or just that endless missing him, telling him things, hearing his voice and ideas. I could go on but I'm depressing myself here...
Actually, the book is called Starting Over and it will help a lot. It's another John Gray book.
I wish I could tell you this part is easy, but it isn't. It sucks, plain and simple. However, if you work it, you'll end up better than before. Promise.
Delfina, first of all, I'm so so sorry this is happening to you. Something very similar happened to me a little over two months ago. I am still at times devastated by it. I can't fathom how someone who proclaimed to love me so much and who swore to do anything it took to keep us together could up and disappear. It was like he became a different person over night, someone i didn't recognize. He accused me of clingy, dependent behavior. Things I just didn't do. I agonized over what I had done, what I could redo. How I could fix it. At some point, I found out he had been seeing someone else. I don't know for how long, but I know we overlapped. All those hurtful things he said were just a way to deflect guilt and responsibility from his own behavior. I still can't believe he would be capable of that. I still can't believe it really happened.
Nothing anyone can say will make this better, no advice we can offer will lessen the pain. It sucks. Plain and simple, it sucks. And you'll just have to feel it all. I took my thread here almost like a journal. I poured it all out - every miserable emotion, every self-defeating moment. I put it all in words. I embraced it and I let it go. I encourage you to do the same.
I've found so much solace here. Many of us are really smart, really accomplished women who for whatever reason seem to be hopeless at relationships. I fully admit to not being able to succeed in this one portion of my life. I'm going to change it. Don't know how yet, but I will.
We're here, we care and we understand. I'm so sorry for what you are going through
I think the worst thing your text could've done was reinforce his decision. Had you waited another week, I really don't think the decision would've been different, although it might've prolonged it a little.
Obviously, that's only my opinion as we'll never know for sure.
I would've taken the advice of the coach, but then again, I don't EVER want to be with a guy where one text drives him over the edge. If that's who he is, he doesn't need to be with me.
Totally believe in honoring the cave, but I don't think this was a cave.
Sorry, because it's an awful place to be.
Just for the record, I don't think anything you did made him pull away, go in the cave, or leave. I just think you (like many of us) chased him when he needed time (and I also think that not chasing him would have had a different outcome). If I didn't explain myself well, I'm sorry. I'm just saying that he asked for something and he didn't get it. The outcome isn't your fault. It is what it is and really does suck. I hope my posts haven't hurt you because that wasn't my intent at all and I do apologize if that is what I have done.
Thanks MK, JR, Lisapooh, Sophia, and Hope. I agree with all of you on different levels.
Hope, I just don't see how I didn't give him what he wanted. It's not like I was harassing the guy. I sent one text after he showered me with kisses for half an hour a few days before then fell off the planet. That makes me a needy psycho who chased him off? Then he responds with riddles. Not even something concrete to let me know this is The End. What's that all about? Anyway, now he's got all the space he could ever want or need from me. And I won't be contact him again.
JR, Yes, I should have taken the coach's advice but I couldn't wait longer because it was becoming extremely disruptive to my work. As I mentioned, my work requires my full focus. I also tend to agree with you that he had already made the decision to separate from me. He probably knew it when he saw me that day and just didn't have the nerve to tell me to my face and fell into my arms instead. It felt like Hello Again, but I guess it was Goodbye.
Sophia, my mind does not want him back but my heart is still in the relationship, secretly hoping for some sort of resolution. I hate the word "closure" but I really would like a clue as to what the heck happened between us, even if just for reference purposes.
Lisapooh, you are right, there are many great people on these boards who've really illuminated many things for me. I feel lucky to have come across these boards.
Peace & Good Energy to you all.
Delfina
Woulda, shoulda, coulda... the ways our wonderment can drive us bonkers.
The only way to know is to go back in time and see what happens with a different approach and I don't see a Delorean and Doc Brown in this story
Starting Over is a fantastic read and I have used it to process all forms of grief.
I do not believe you were selfish either.
I'm in total agreement he was already out the door if you scared him off. There are scarier things in life than that text message.
Had quite a terrible morning when I happened to drive past my M's car; I was going in one direction, he was going in the other. I doubt he saw me. My car is like any other while his has a professional logo on it. He is rarely working in my neighborhood so it was a shock. What are the odds...
All the emotions I've managed pretty well these past few days flooded back 1000 times stronger. I'm pretty crushed.
Anyone have any strategies for how to get an ex-boyfriend back? Just curious.
Delfina -
Been there and done that myself many a time before...but STOP...and think about YOU!!!
I feel your pain..but you deserve so much better!!
Hang in there....
- TH
Well... I believe that the best way to get an M back is to totally, unequivocally, leave them alone ...but leave an open door in your heart, and let them go with love. Like that old cliche.... if you love something, let it go. If it comes back, it's yours. If it doesn't, it never was.
And while that is happening, you have to truly let go....the hardest part is the mental pursuit and thoughts. I always feel better the day I can walk into "our" restaurant and not once think of that M until I'm leaving or even later... and then...bam... and then I know I've done the work and it's working
You can do it too!
I don't want a guy that I have to beg, plead, manipulate, cajole, trick or threaten into seeing me again.
He knows where you are and what your number is.
Why would you even want him back? The roller coaster ride will go on and the inevitable ending will just be prolonged. If he finds it so easy to treat you this way now, do you really think he won't do it again?!?!? And if you did take him back, you are telling him with your actions that what he did was okay, you will wait for him and he can step on you and do whatever he wants.
It's not like I want him back so he can continue this bad behavior. It's because I hate that our relationship has faded to darkness and silence and I hope for a more civilized outcome of two adults communicating. The dream scenario is that he has some sort of epiphany about his stupidity, acknowledges his errors, and wants to try again. If that were the case, I might entertain the idea. Of course I know holding out hope is crippling to the process of moving on so I have to accept this relationship is a done deal. I'm grieving, mourning, full of sorrow and regret. The days are eternal. The nights are even longer. The weather has been crappy which just makes me more blue. I can't stand that he's able to walk away so easily. It makes it seem that our entire relationship was a fraud.
The thing is, you don't know what's going on with him. Maybe he got away easily. Maybe he's torn up with regret and pain. Who knows why they do this s***.
It was only after some time that I realized how small a box my ex had put himself in and how miserable he made himself. He couldn't and wouldn't be happy. He preferred to stew in his own pain.
Believe me, it's painful the first time they leave out of the blue, but it's ten times worse when they do it the second time after promising to never do it again.
IMO, if he can do it once, he'll do it again, despite what he says.
Good humor there MK, I ... for one... needed it
Thanks Meandering, JessicaRabbit, MandyKay, TarynRose, Big Red, & others.
I read all of Starting Over yesterday. I'm really not looking forward to the long process of getting over this guy....
And then BIG NEWS THIS MORNING.
He just texted me: Good morning. I had a hard few days because of my son's birthday. How are you?
WHAAAAAAAT??????
Any advice on how to respond or not respond?
in my opinion, this guy needed to feel sense of freedom again. Doens't make him a bad guy, I think a lot of people got their 90/10s aroused reading here..
id give him more of it....meanwhile really keep all your boundaries ..and really focus on YOU as the jewel. go out and have fun for the next weeks, even date others, and decide if this guy is really someone you want to be with. This will give you time to get your self assuredness back
I dated a guy like this a few years ago (he brought me to the boards). Very confusing. We had our "space" for a bit over a month. He'd call and talk just like we're friends. But no suggestion of a date or getting together. I finally asked when we'd see each other again and he said something to the tune of soon, it's not been that long. I said it's been over a month. He said, it has? Yep. But during that time my emotions had been allowed to cool off and when he did suggest coming over I said no, I'm not going to be a booty call, and moved on. He still called and texted off and on over the next year or so, and when I started dating someone else he professed shock and outrage. I said, what do you have to be upset about, we're just friends, aren't we? He had to admit that that's what he thought of me. I was the "good enough for now" girl.
Think long and hard about this man. Do you want to be his "good enough for now" girl?
in a rush and off to a meeting but just wanted to quickly echo what others have said here!
i'd tread these waters VERY cautiously for fear of getting bit again!
Best of luck - and like everyone said...you are the prize here...focus on what YOU want and whether this is behavior that you could deal with again down the road...because if this is putting his GOOD foot forward in the first 6ish months...i'd hate to see the BAD foot
Hang in there...and think before you reply
- TH
Delfina,
It's really about what you want. Certainly, this is a lesson in how the moment we are not focused on another, they feel the crickets and come out with some contact. When I work late nights in the lab, my M always calls me. When I am painting my toenails by the pool, he calls me. I have a friend who does energy cleansings and either during the cleanse to about 20 minutes after, he calls me. It never fails. Also, when we are self focused, we are usually feeling good. That energy is like a magnet and people are drawn to it: "Hmmm... wonder what Delfina is up to?" I believe in telepathy, energy, connectivity-- so take whatever works for you from this "theory" and discard the rest
I really like Joy's approach of taking some time to focus on yourself and mull this over--it gives you the opportunity to figure out what you truly want while all of your love tanks are balanced. Sometimes we get enough space from our partner, while living our own lives, and realize he really was "meh". Or you'll miss him.
If you know what you want right now, there are Vs here who can help you craft a response in the "M way" (including me--but tonight is date night so I'll be MIA until tomorrow morning).
We each walk our own path and I have made decisions that other Vs on this board wouldn't. My M is great to me, but he had a drunken one night stand over a year ago. He more than made up for it and did his work to show me he was willing to grow (and he did), but cheating is one of those "run for the hills" type of things. I don't have any regrets but I tend not to focus too much on the past. I made my decision, and that was that, and here I am. I guess my point is relationships are not a one size fits all. Do what feels true to you, but I do believe the best way to figure that out is when you are in the flow of life and feeling good.
There is no right or wrong her--it's your life. Take command of it and seek out what you want (in terms of a relationship in general).
Wishing you well! xo
Well, I have not responded to his text and I don't think I will. I just think that given all the time he's chosen not to speak to me or see me, it shows too little effort on his part to make contact.
I can't tell if he just wants to make friendly contact to ensure I don't hate him, or if this is him trying to get back with me or test how I respond. I think he expects me to show some sympathy for his hard days being upset over his son, but come on...
At this point, I do need space to focus on work. But I also want to get communication flowing. BUT, I want him to make the effort. Not me. Any suggestions on how to get that to happen or do I just sit back, get on with my life, and leave the ball in his court?
IMO it is brave of you to keep silent. I know how much you would like to see him and be with him, so it cannot be easy. I can understand you want him to make the effort, but it seems to me as either a M does it or he doesn't and it is really not something a V can do much about. Unfortunately.
I don't think you will feel relaxed with him again; even if you get him back you will always wonder when he is going to take the back door next and you will always be afraid to say/do something wrong. But I also understand how hard it is to start over, so big hugs to you...
Gosh Delfina, my thoughts are all over the place!
I love Joy's reply I agree with MK, there isn't a right or wrong here and it really is about what you feel the most comfortable with
I'm just confused. M/V says when a guy's been rubberbanding you should respond when he comes back in a casual way. I still haven't responded but I'd like to open the door to communication. Or maybe it's better to hold out until he tries again? Any advice?
Well, I have not responded to his text and I don't think I will. I just think that given all the time he's chosen not to speak to me or see me, it shows too little effort on his part to make contact.
Ok, so you don't want to contact him but you want to get communication flowing? These two desires contradict one another. He reached out via text, if you want to keep communication flowing, then respond back.
He HAS made an effort by texting you to get communication going. It may not be the type of communication you want or what you wanna hear, but this is what stepping back and evaluation mode are for.
Do you want him to call you? What is it you want? To not see him for a few weeks? To just chat on the phone? To date others?
I guess it's possible someone might suggest something different to this but, if you want communication then you need to respond to start a dialogue. If you wait, to me, that's kind of game playing....but I don't blame you for waiting and wanting him to try to contact you again.
I also want to add that we V's have to stop allowing texting as a replacement for an M actually calling us. To me they simply do not mean the same. A phone call still carries more weight to me and I let my M know that early on. While we do text, he still calls me way more often than he texts...and we live in the same house
First, let me say that I absolutely know I have 90/10s on this topic and I've never tried to hide them. That being said, it doesn't mean that any of what I said isn't true, at least for me.
I do not recommend your not responding to him at all if you're looking for OPTIONS. You might not be ready to just blow everything off from the last week and run into his arms. I wouldn't either. However, this text is a way of reaching out to see if you're mad, imo.
I would respond by text and do tell him to call you in whatever time frame you want. Texting is lazy and it's safe, which is why he's doing it, also imo.
I don't have a problem with your wanting a week or two to think it over, to pull away from the high emotion you have now and to evaluate whether or not this works for you. (It does not for me.) I don't have a problem with your deciding you can't live like this. I don't have a problem with your deciding all is well and forgiven, although I think it would be wise to have a discussion as to why this isn't cool with you and shouldn't happen again.
The only response I think is not wise is to do nothing. Doing nothing is not only passive-aggressive, it leads HIM to wonder all about what you're thinking, which exactly the reason you're mad at him - because he didn't take the :15 seconds it would take to send you a "I know I said I'd call, really busy, we're fine, talk next week " text when you asked him what was up. This would be tit-for-tat and not a very grown-up way of behaving, even if he didn't behave in a grown-up way.
As I've said before, I can totally honor and respect a man's need to rubberband, cave and whatever. No problems with that. But to say "I'll call tomorrow," not call, then fall off the planet for several days, not respond to a simple request, then act as if nothing was wrong, well....having been through that, no bueno in my book.
But that's me. You do what you want.
Completely agree with JR and Meandering that if you wanna keep the door open, even if you choose to later shut it, you need to respond. To not respond is very gamey IMO.
Regardless, even if you wanna slam the door in his face now, good endings make good beginnings (with the next guy) so honor that by breaking things off on the phone on in person.
Thanks ladies! Great advice all around!
I do want to respond, though I am nervous to do so, which is why I want to make sure I say the wisest thing when I do. I want to respond in a respectful manner, yet I don't want to put him on the spot of be confrontational because if I understand my MV books correctly, that can backfire and it's best to wait to have those conversations later when you're face to face and both at ease.
So what exactly can I say in a text back that will get the ball rolling?
Sorry you've had a hard time, though I don't know what happened exactly. I care for you and and don't understand why we ended up at this point.
How does that sound?
Or something more direct like:
It would be easier to have a conversation over the phone.
Or just put it all out there:
Sorry you've had a hard time. I've had a hard time too trying to understand your silence and distance.
Or
Your text surprised me. I thought you'd disappeared forever. Sorry about your son. Call me.
Am I on the right track here?
I would not engage in a "discussion" over text. Something along the lines of what Joy suggested is good: Hey there, great to hear from you! This space idea of yours has been a great idea. In fact I need another couple of weeks of it. Ive been catching up with all my friends this week and enjoying the summer fun. Or you could just say something like: It's nice to hear from you, but I'd prefer to have a conversation by phone.
Whatever you do, don't get too involved by text. It is a lazy form of communication and it's too easy to misinterpret tone and intent. Continue to reiterate that you would prefer to talk by phone.
For me, I'd like the one Joy said earlier, "Thanks for contacting me. Now I need (x amount of time) to finish a project and sort things out. Call me (next Friday, Monday, whatever)."
i would keep it short and simple and with no real emotion at ALL (keep more detailed stuff for phone or in person)
maybe just say....."would be nice to catch up over telephone, please call when you get a chance"
and then just wait and see what he does...will tell you TONS if he DOES call....
some men like text...when my M and i first started dating...he texted TONS right after we met..and then i finally texted back "hey, would be great if you called" and a few seconds later...."brrrring....brrrring" went the phone
Sounds good. I definitely want to keep it "light," but I also recall that it's not smart to ask the M to call because they apparently resent being "told what to do." Is that right? After all, that's one of the reasons I ended up in this mess...
How about if I just say: Sorry to hear you've had a hard time. I'm fine and very busy.
And then see what he does after that?
An M will do ANYTHING to keep a V happy if she's the right V for him. Telling an M you'd like to hear his voice via phone, asking him to call you on Wed, etc... these things are not bossing an M around. It's different than telling him to tuck in his shirt or eat with the salad fork. Ms need direction on how to make us happy. Then, the ball is in his court and you sit back.
So.... what are you afraid of here? Send a response already Keep it light,the rest belongs to a real conversation. I think you are over thinking this and putting far too much emphasis on this text, and it makes me worry that you are setting yourself up for disappointment. Breathe sister!
BTW, I'm listening to an audibook while I work and was reminded about how our "hemming and hawing" comes from a lack of personal decision, personal boundaries, not having a clear image of what is true for us and naming our fears. Third chakra stuff here
That's not a bad think MK
I was wondering why there is so much fear about this......
I'm wondering if it's more anger than fear...
Well, I know I'm hesitating like crazy here. Just emailed with a coach because I have house full of guests and can't do a phone chat and she said Dr. Gray says to keep texts upbeat to "remind" the M of how fabulous we are etc, and not that we Vs are serious, emotional, demanding time etc.
She also says not to ask for a call or anything.
So that leaves me further perplexed on how to phrase a light upbeat nondemading text. Ugh.
Then I'd just say, "Good to hear from you."
I would say it it one of the ways MK stated earlier (I think your version was too sympathetic, and is you giving more than he's giving):
"Given the nature of your last conversation, I think it's perfectly okay to say: "M, given the nature of our last text conversation, I am confused what you are looking for. I would like ________ (relationship, to just date, to take space). What do you think?"
Then, let him speak. Or you can simply tell him you are confused by the nature of the last text conversation and what he wants without saying what you want.
Do this via phone if you can. "M, thanks for the text. Would be nice to hear your voice on the phone." something like that. Then he is the one calling, and when he calls you clear things up.
In keeping with the coach's suggestion "Good to hear from you!" Nothing more,nothing less. That is a friendly, positive, receptive response.
I'm not saying the coach's advice is bad--I actually like coaching--but I don't agree with it in this particular situation. I'm not a professional and my advice is not always in line with M/V because I see personalities and situations are not always M/V cut and dry. I think letting an M know you'd love to hear his voice is definitely not demanding. It's setting a boundary that phone conversations are your thing. I go on the belief that we teach others how to treat us and the first 6-8 months of a relationship sets a tone.
A light text will let this M know you are open to conversation. It doesn't guarantee he will bring it, especially on the phone.
A week ago you wanted to shove this M into the pits of h ell and be done with him. A few days ago you were moving on. Now you are not sure what you want except communication and given the nature of the texts you crafted for us to look over, you appear to wanna know WTH is going on here. Fear, anger, whatever you're feeling is natural. I hope this M brings it and brings it good, because you deserve resolution and perhaps the only way to get it is to take control in a loving way and get it. No demands, no nasty words, just a simple "What's up?"
Just know that there is a chance this M will continue to dip his hand into the water and test it out, without talking about the issue, until you guide it that way. I don't see him being the type to say "Hey, about that space stuff...I have a plan, I can see you 'x' days a week and do 'y'." This is not based on M/V but the way I view his personality, given all he's done. Maybe he will surprise me. I hope, for your sake, he does surprise me and tells you WTH is up. Is he just looking for phone buddies? Is it over? Does he wanna have one last bang? Does he want a sympathetic ear for all his woes?
Until you figure out what you want and iterate that, you remain in limbo--and it seems to me you are basing your wants off of his intent which is a BIG no-no IMO. You have feet, use them. You have eyes, look around. You have a brain, make a decision. I'm trying to be gentle here, but I see more than just wanting to know the "M/V way of doing things". I see a V who wants answers, and you aren't gonna get answers with an easy breezy text. Yes, there are times to be patient, but how much more patient do you need to be? How many more times do you have to wonder what is going on? He's right there. He has all these answers you seek.
Sending many good vibes your way. I know it's tough. I want to see you in a position of personal power, looking at what you want, moving your mind and focus in that direction.
Right now it just appears you are casting into the darkness, hoping to land a fish, and who knows? Maybe you casted onto a log...
I feel the same way as Jessicarabbit. But if you must, then Joy's suggestion was great. It's friendly but still gives a strong signal that you have limits too, and it gives you back what you are losing, your control with the development of the situation.
I vote for Joy's response too. It's breezy and responsive and lets him know that YOU are enjoying life. Or, a neutral short response like "Good to hear from you" .
Any response by text that brings up the relationship is heavy and makes you sound like you've been pining away for him.
As for telling him it would be nice to hear his voice, that is not the same thing as asking a guy to call you. It is letting him know something thay would please YOU, not telling him what to do about it.
I'm with JR.
Another suggestion: "Great to hear from you, I'm flat out, I have a huge deadline, I'd love to talk to you on Wed". That's NOT asking him to call you and it's saying that you don't want to communicate via text. It's telling him that you're happy to hear from him, you're busy (ie you have a life) but that you'd love to talk to him. No harm in that at all.
Personally I'd be done with him - but that's me.
If I could try and put myself in the coach's position for a moment, I think what she was trying to get at, is for him to call...giving him just ENOUGH info to call, not so much info that he feels vindicated, or out of the woods or blamed, just enough to keep the communication going.
I DO NOT think the coach was intending that comment to be the end of the convo.
I agree with Mandy that I don't think you want to END UP with a light, breezy, "you're out of the woods" message, but a simple text will most likely bring him around so (again) you have OPTIONS.
If you want to decide you don't want him, that's OK. You had the OPTION.
If you decide you do want him, no questions asked or answered, you had the option.
If, and I hope if you want him back you at least go this far, you communicate what is and is not OK within the context of a six month r'ship going forward.
All of that is to give you the OPTION to do what you end up needing to do.
Hi Everyone! Thanks so much for your advice and suggestions!
Just an update. So far I have not responded to his text. I had a very busy day with my guests and while he was in the back of my mind, I am just not ready to answer him, and not ready for the possible outcome which obviously could just lead to more disappointment since his attempt to connect with me appears kind of half-as*ed.
So for now I'm going to hold off. Maybe I will respond after the weekend. In the meantime, hopefully he will realize his effort was not enough and step it up a notch. Or maybe he's just playing a little game to see if I will take the bait. Either way, I'm not ready. I'm in a good place right now after a roller coaster week. So I'm waiting a bit before making my move...
I'm glad you haven't answered him because you are worried you would be disappointed and I do think that you might be disappointed because the expectations have been raised high, IMO. Glad you are busy and enjoying yourself, that's good to hear
Want to reiterate what MK said here to give you food for thought:
Thanks ladies!
Yes, I'm going to wait until after the weekend because, like you all pointed out, my expectations are high right now, from the emotion of hearing from him again, and because I have a house full of guests I want to be able to enjoy them without falling back into that checking the phone to see if he replied yet. So I am planning on replying, casually, probably on Monday or Tuesday.
By then he will also have had a few days of waiting to see if I respond, which might be good for him to experience.
Delfina,
I totally agree with MK and Meandering about you having high expectations. You said you are in a good place right now and I think that is because you got a "fix" of him with his text. You now feel stronger and perhaps more powerful. You always have whatever power you want, no need to get it based on someone else's behavior. Also, you want him to feel the same way you've been feeling and those are punishing thoughts. You may be sending him negative messages with your energy.
Let those expectations go and when you do decide to respond to him, know exactly what you are wanting. If you are confused and he is confused, you will remain in limbo. Even a "casual" response will carry your intention.
Just my 2 cents!
WTW
Thanks!!
worththewait, you are so right. I did feel a jolt of power after hearing from him via text, though it's not exactly power, more like a little peace that he hadn't fallen off the planet forever and has given a sign of life. so that might have something to do with me being in a better place. but i also agree with the others who say if I ignore his text all chance of further communication will further cease. And I like what you said about the message carrying my intention. I've just got to wait for the right wording to occur to me, but I think I will send it off on Tuesday so I didn't have to sit through 4th of July fireworks wondering if he's going to respond...that sort of thing.
I have let go of the idea of us as a couple, but I also can't help hope that we can find a better resolution than the one we've got going so far. I hate that he brought us to this point. But I am also trying to be compassionate in my understanding.
More confused than every over here...
My friends say I should not reply to his text. They say he's just stringing me along with it and if I reply it will create a pattern of the once a week obscure text, and that if he was really interested in being with me that he'd make a greater effort any be calling or standing at my door or something.
I said I have a hard time just walking away and ignoring him. And they say "but he's the one who started ignoring you." Which is true.
And of course they say what's meant to be will be, time will tell, and if he really wants to be with me he will come back and explain, which of course he has not yet tried to do.
I'm so conflicted.
(((hugs))) To add to your confusion , I do in part agree with your friends. Many of my responses about it though, are because you said you wanted to open up communication with him, that you wanted a dialogue. If you want that, you have to be receptive to his text. A conversation that doesn't go both ways is a monologue, not a dialogue
It's possible if you respond receptively, he will string you along with a text once a week. It's possible that since he isn't coming forward more aggressively, he isn't the M for you. And there are all kinds of possibilities within those sentences.
If you feel ready to face those possibilities and you are completely okay with not responding, then don't. This is when YOU get to decide for YOU what is best for YOU.
Delfina,
That is V thinking.
Ms dip their toes in the water if they fear a V will come back with harsh words, crying, emotional outrage, etc, etc. They wanna make sure the coast is clear before going further (if that's what they intend to do). He's not gonna come right out and say, "Hey this is what happened," without first testing if it's okay to have communication. The ball is in your court right now.
The coach's advice to open the door to communication with a light text is spot on. That doesn't mean it stops there. That doesn't mean you set yourself up to be treated poorly. It simply means if you want communication, he's testing the waters and you be receptive to that with a lighthearted non-emotional text.
You are over thinking this. What do YOU want? Because all I hear from you is what your friends think, what we think, what the coach thinks... I have yet to really hear what YOU want and for you to stand firm in it. If you put out wishy washy vibes, that's what you're gonna get back. The Universe says, "Hey, you like wishy washy. Here you go!"
Before you go further, decide what YOU want and set up a course of action that reflects it.
It really is that simple.
Your friends are right. For your own mental health, please listen to them and
move on.
Sometimes the best advice is: when in doubt, do nothing.
I am glad to see that you are in observation mode. You are evaluating all of the behavior of this M, including his latest text.
I would be totally in uncertainty about him, because he has shown he is uncertain about you and your relationship. His text does nothing to show you otherwise.
Thanks so much everyone.
I finally had a chance to speak on the phone with a coach today and she advised me to do nothing for a bit. After talking it through, while she said he's probably testing the waters to see how mad I am, she said it's good to let him wait and see what my move next move is and that the longing and waiting and wondering can help clarify his own uncertainty about me, just as the time that I spend with the ball in my court will help me to feel stronger, and clarify my current distrust and uncertainty about him. Plus, given that I have an enormous work deadline, I can continue to focus on that rather than playing the text/waiting game again. So that's the strategy for now: to do nothing, as some of you suggested. In the meantime, he will have a chance to do more than he already has, or not. And with that, I will perhaps change how I feel about him in the course of the next few weeks. And then, we'll see. Maybe I will reach out then to let him know the green light is on for communication. But the stakes still feel high for me emotionally right now, so I am going to hold off.
This also sort of falls in line with something my mom and sister told me: that in the beginning of the relationship he'd show up with flowers, poems, and letters, so there is no doubt this M is capable of such gestures. And if he really wants to get my attention, he knows how to get it. A simple text after all this nonsense doesn't cut it.
Thank you all for your kindness and support over these difficult weeks. I will certainly keep you posted as I hope that my experience can be useful to others who are going through similar situations and confronting the same sort of loneliness and confusion regarding their M.
Peace & Love
Deflina
**Just to clarify for those of you who asked what it is I want, as opposed to asking for advice on what to do-- I do want to give our relationship another try. But I want him to want it, and I don't want to have to cajole him or convince him to want it. And I'm not ready for the push and pull right now because I've lost faith in him, and he's playing too many games with his disappearances and resurfacing via text. So I'm going to let him go. Hopefully this will make him fight for me. And if it doesn't, I guess that shows that he's without a doubt not the M for me.
But again to clarify my intention, I do love him and do hope we can try again and I'd be open to it.
Wow, I just finished all 49 pages!
Delfina I just want to say that I think you've conducted yourself with great dignity and poise throughout this whole thing.
I haven't much more to add on the latest situation.
I see you want him back, if he steps up. I would caution you to perhaps set some boundaries here for yourself. I mean, how long are you going to wait? I don't think it's a good idea to put ourselves on hold for a guy in the hope that he will change.
I also think this M has so much on his plate. Is he going to withdraw in this way every time there's a family birthday, or holiday celebrations such as Christmas etc? And if so,can you deal with that?
If you really want him back, that's ok. But don't put your life on hold waiting for him.
And just in, this morning, another text from my M saying:
"Miss Delfina, how are you?"
And an hour later another text from my M, this time with a photo of himself saying: take care Delfina.
I still haven't responded.
I definitely hear what you guys are saying but his texts still are saying nothing and I just think it's too little a gesture given all his crap behavior the past month, and if he really wants to talk to me he should just call me and not send cutesy texts with photos of himself looking sexy. Am I wrong?
Here's the way I see it:
You're acting like a woman who wants a knight to charge in and fix everything he screwed up, and to do it in a knightly way.
He's a man, who's scared sh**less about encountering a p*ssed off woman who's going to yell at him for behaving like an arse.
Because I'm a woman, I think I'd want what you want. However, I also take that text to mean that he believes you are no longer interested and I seriously doubt that you will ever hear from him again. Unless, perhaps, he's drunk and missing you.
You need to seriously consider the following: if I canNOT have him be a knight and fight for us, am I OK with letting him go? Because that's how it's shaking out.
If, however, you believe that this behavior is the sign of something that's just the tip of the iceberg and you REALLY AND TRULY do not want him in your life, than that's OK. Because that's what you'll get.
There are better ways to handle this than with silence. You can TELL him you need him to step up and explain his behavior along with what kind of assurances he'll give you that this BS won't happen again. You can TELL him what you need. You can TELL him you need time.
And PS, I mean this with all the respect in the world, but I don't believe an MV coach said to not respond at all.
What JR said
Thanks ladies.
Right now I'm still waiting it out. I don't think there's any need to respond right away. Maybe tonight. Maybe tomorrow. Maybe in a few days or next week. I'm not ready to jump back into this thing. I don't really buy that he's scared to death to speak to me because of fearing a woman's rage. I have never given him any reason to think I'd behave like an angry lunatic. It's only now that I've been ignoring him that he's showing more interest in me again. So part of me, as the coach advised, think it's a good "strategy" to inspire in him a little panic and uncertainty that I am still around.
If I do respond, I will probably just keep it light and say, hey, I'm fine thanks. Giving him just the bare minimum. Telling him right off the bat "we need to talk" or anything along those lines is according to MV, the worst thing you can do, and I don't want to even go there just yet.
I do want him to act like a "knight" because that's the way he acted at the start of our relationship. He courted me beautifully to get me to go out with him, and I hope he can be that gentleman again, not just this lame guy sending lame texts after weeks and weeks of stupid behavior and estrangement.
JR, thanks so much for your advice. And yes, an MV coach did advise me to not respond for a while (several weeks) to wait and see what he does. She also said, contrary to what I've read on this board, that "caving" can last from a period of days to weeks, even to months-- as long as it takes for the M to deal with the task at hand. In her opinion, my situation had to do with my M caving and also a the stage of uncertainty hitting at the same time. I asked her several times, so you think I should not respond at all? And she said, No, you should not. Wait. Let him experience the loss of you in his life. Men fall in love in their minds, not with contact or conversation. He needs to miss you.
There you have it: and I have the $181 phone charge on my bank statement to prove it.
Inside every man, there is a scared little boy fearing the wrath of an angry woman. H ell hath no fury like a woman scorned.
I don't see the difference between twisting a man's arm to come back and using silence to induce panic so he'll come running back. They are the same IMO.
BTW, if you are set on focusing on work and your life for several weeks to see how you feel, why are you here telling us his every single texting move he's made?
No judgment, but it seems contradictory...
Delfina....
A few random thoughts....
1) the knight in shining armor act can only last so long....no man can hold to that standard...they are real...just like us....just like we aren't princesses waiting in a tower to be rescued (believe me...i've been SO guilty of this one myself....but just like we aren't perfect...neither are men...)
2) he MIGHT just be the wrong guy....he MIGHT just be only intending to send texts and never get back to who he was....but the sooner you find out, the sooner you can move on....
3) he MIGHT JUST BE REALLLLLLLY SORRY!!! he might be the best guy ever!!! but even the best guy ever isn't perfect!
4) i fear that by holding onto the anger (believe me, i would too!) and not responding for weeks....that you are only damaging would COULD be a good relationship (see back to #s 2 and 3) - and the best thing here is to at least give him a hint...
i'm curious....what was the coach's advice on when you DO talk to him? did the coach say to wait until he calls? if he calls will you be friendly? just curious?
and yes, he should call .... but he might be scared if you continue to ignore his texts
he might also think you are being rude for not responding (just like YOU thought HE was being rude) and he might just give up (because he really shouldn't have to be the knight in shining armor - at least IMO - i just think relationships should be a bit more balanced and holding him up to such standards might be a bad thing in the long run)
just my 2 cents....best of luck to you!
Delfina, I appreciated the laughter this gave me:
I, for one, never had a problem with his "caving" or whatever you want to call it. I always and ONLY had a problem with his total elementary school way of communicating. To say, "I'll call you tomorrow," then not do it, then not respond to those blasted texts (a non-form of communication IMO), then out of nowhere decide HE is ready and ta-da, expect return communication - THAT is what I abhor.
He could have all the time he wanted if he wasn't such a toad about it.
Is this M even worth the $181 you spent?
I am so with the coach on this one. If this M really wants to be with the OP then he can manage more than a few measly texts. When my M thought he was in danger of losing me after we hit our first roadblock, he was so panicked he literally came running from half way around the globe. If this guy wants the OP back he'll pick up the phone, or better yet, knock on her door/ send flowers/ show up at her work on his knees begging for forgiveness, or something along those lines.
He dropped the ball and then behaved like a self-absorbed jerk. He needs to grovel appropriately.
What's peace of mind really worth? I think it's one of those things that is priceless Though I think MK's question is a good one.
I just want to add that you might get your white knight back, if he really wants to pursue. However, you've seen his behavior after the white knight periods ends. So be prepared.
Thanks, Meandering
BTW, I think this guy has displayed bad behavior (lousy communication, etc) BUT my understanding is that Delfina still wants this guy. In her own words she is in love with him and wants it to work. So, that's how I've been tailoring advice. Or maybe I misunderstood?
I'm not picking up an uncertainty vibe, I am picking up a punishing/making him grovel and beg for his life kinda vibe... almost like Delfina feels vindicated in her silence because he made her feel so bad. It's not how I would do it, but it takes all kinds to make the world go 'round. There was a time I probably would have done this. Now I figure there are too few days on this planet to make others suffer just because *I* feel bad.
The truth is, we make ourselves feel bad by personalizing all the sh*t others do to us. A bit off topic, but each of us has the power to feel good no matter how "bad" someone treats us.
If we dont' like what we're getting, we always have the power to get something better. Delfina, you can choose to walk away from this at anytime. Yet, here you are. Why is that?
Sometimes we confuse hurt ego with love. Trying to get revenge on someone is a sign of the ego being involved. Being in pain has to do with the ego not getting what it thinks is rightly his/hers. It (the ego) thinks that by getting angry, resentful, whiny will get us what we want. When we love, all that falls away and we are mostly grateful. Love is kind, love is grateful, love accepts all, love forgives all.
Delfina:
This is the first time I posted, but I have been reading along.
IMO, your biggest obstacle here is not whether to decide if you want to text him back or not, its whether you will ever be able to trust him again with your heart.
I have been coming around here for several years now and there have been many Vs in your shoes...when the M and V are in an LTR and he decides to "cave." (Although, I for one, don't believe that if an M is emotionally and physically gone for weeks he is "caving.") The M comes back and the V accepts him. Except, she is emotionally non-trusting and he is not quite as emotionally committed. There is "too much water under the bridge" and they eventually break up for good.
IMO, emotional distance destroys dating relationships. The dynamic is never the same.
Just something for you to think about.
Hope: No its not...I had this one confused with the 11 mth old relationship--which I do consider long term enough that if an M disappears, it is detrimental to the relationship.
OOPS! As JR has been saying, there are alot of Vs on here right now whose Ms are just "pulling away."
Hi Everyone. Thank you so much for your comments and support.
I wanted to let you know that the reason I continue to post here is because I hope that my experience can be helpful to other people in similar situations. Yes, I do work very hard yet still take two minutes here and there to post about my Ms texts or whatever. It's not contradictory but rather I am able to make the time as I make my own schedule and take short breaks as I please. I also choose to spend my money on coaching not because my M is worth it, but because I am worth it.
That said, I spoke with a coach again last night and she clarified some of the decisions I was struggling with and was a great help. She advised me to continue to ignore my Ms texts. The reason for this is to break the pattern as when he first decided to take "space" and then decided he still wanted us to be in touch, it probably left him with the impression that I'd always be there. It set a pattern that he can do what he wants and it only takes a few texts to get back into my good graces. She's what he's doing now as a repetition of the pattern and says I need to break the pattern by showing that texts don't cut it. She also says that in her experience, men really only turn around completely after they've been confronted with losing their V forever. So that is what we are trying to do here- spook my M into seeing he blew it with me and that if he wants me back he needs to work for it-- certainly more than send a few cutesy text messages. To me it seems so simple: if he would only pick up the phone and call me I would talk to him. If he would only say something direct and not just a text to bait me, I would respond. But the coach says Ms only appreciate what they've had to work hard for, and men fall in love in the spaces, so my absence can work wonders if I have the patience and strength to keep up with it. The alternative is my responding to his texts to hope the communication floodgates open but his past behavior reveals that it probably wouldn't happen, and would probably give him more reason to think he can take infinite space and I will be there hanging on by a thread, feeling rejected again. The proof that this method is working thus far is that since I have ignored his texts in the past week, he has stepped up the frequency of initiating contact.
Lo an behold last night at about 11pm I got a text from him saying: Good evening Del. I'm in your neighborhood.
(this is unusual as I mentioned we live 45 mins apart and he doesn't work late nights, and he has no other reason to be in my neighborhood but me)
I responded: why
He responded: why what
I did not respond because I felt he was being childish and indirect.
A few minutes later he texted again: I'm working on a job on Blossom Ave.
I did not respond.
20 minutes later he responded: Sorry to wake you up. I finished working. Take care.
I did not respond.
I think he might have wanted me to say something like "come over" which I did not. My sister was laughing as I told her this saying "Wow, that man can't stand to be ignored!" and I think she has a point. He might not even realize I am mad at him for shutting me out the way he did a few weeks ago but I hope that my non-response will at least get him thinking.
The coach also told me that this whole process can take days, weeks, or even months. But the best thing I can do is give him exactly what he wanted from the start, total space, and also a dose of his own medicine in ignoring him. I asked if that was contrary to MV or even passive aggressive and she said no, I tried the MV method before and it set up a bad pattern. Right now we are pattern-breaking. And it's not passive aggressive, it's me setting my boundaries very clearly that it takes more to get my attention than silly text messages.
Because I do love him and do still have hope we can work it out I am willing to give this strategy a try. The only hope for the relationship to go on is if we break the pattern. It can't go on the way it was before with him pushing me away and acting like a jerk and me still hanging around.
So 6 texts messages from him yesterday alone. We'll see what happens next.
Much love to all.
D.
To be clear, a lot of women misunderstand MV communication and think that they are supposed to be completely receptive to bad behavior.
That isn't and never has been MV.
I don't think John Gray would EVER say that you should return texts in the same way as done before, and that wasn't/isn't what I was advocating. But I've also never heard him say to not communicate back what you want/need in a direct way.
I'm staying out of the thread so far as advice goes, because as I said I'm extremely confused.
However FTR I have to say right here that I am astonished at the advice being given by the coach. From all the books I have read JG has always advocated a woman not to punish her M and to be receptive. JG always advocates communication. But I'm not professionally trained in MV as the coaches are, so what do I know?
Delfina, good luck with whatever you choose to do regarding your M. As long as you are comfortable with the way you are dealing with this, bottom line is, that's all that matters.
JR, I agree with you and the coach and I discussed it, but she maintains that now is not the time for that sort of discussion. Once he comes back with a stronger more convicted presence (not as wishy-washy as he is right now), I will be able to say what I want/need, and in other words, lay down the law of acceptable behavior.
Delfina, my M and I went through a lot of "pattern breaking" so I understand that you are doing something different in the hopes of different results. One of the things I learned is that if your M does not step up with the kind of communication you want then you need to be able to let him go. It means that although you were able to break your pattern, the M was not able to break his....which also means that he is not the M for you.
I think where several of the posters have gotten confused, as I have been, is that it doesn't seem as if you are approaching this from a position of empowerment and strength. It seems as if your motivation is more along the lines of "tit for tat." I think if you continue to change your mindset to one of "pattern breaking" and not "punishment" you will find more peace as things unfold. While the actions will be the same the energy behind your actions will be dramatically different!
Delfina,
She also says that in her experience, men really only turn around completely after they've been confronted with losing their V forever.
There are many examples where an M never poofed, never disappeared and he still forged a future with his V. He didn't need to experience the loss of his V to make a decision. He did it because he was an adult on his own accord.
My point about you posting here rather than focusing on you was that you are expending a lot of energy into THIS versus into focusing on WHAT YOU WANT.
I hope all this ends up being worth it for you--that you learn something valuable. I still think you are spending entirely too much time focusing on him, laughing at him behind his back, punishing him with your negative thoughts and energy versus focusing on how YOUR 90/10s are playing a role here. THAT'S where you get your money's worth in coaching IMO. You had a guy poof on you who had a woman on the side.
Because I do love him and do still have hope we can work it out I am willing to give this strategy a try.
Unless you can get over being a wounded animal (victim), you'll never come to a place where you can do anything but punish an M for what he did. Trust me, there are far worse things than having an M disappear on you like this. Oh, and don't forget YOUR role in all of this which included letting things get too much, too soon. You weren't doing things the M/V way from the beginning--you were doing them the V way in that you didn't apply the brakes. It takes two to tango here. Don't forget YOUR role and to learn from it. Your M isn't the only one who needs to break a pattern.
it's me setting my boundaries very clearly that it takes more to get my attention than silly text messages
YOU RESPONDED to his text last night.
The only hope for the relationship to go on is if we break the pattern.
The only way people break a pattern is when THEY want to break it--not when they are cajoled into doing so. That person must decide that he/she wants to do differently. All this tit for tat is nothing but cajoling IMO. It's a lot of work for a 5-6 month relationship.
Totally agree with you, JR.
Also with you, MB. I don't see empowerment... I see victim energy all the way...
Delfina,
Lo an behold last night at about 11pm I got a text from him saying: Good evening Del. I'm in your neighborhood.
(this is unusual as I mentioned we live 45 mins apart and he doesn't work late nights, and he has no other reason to be in my neighborhood but me)
I responded: why
If the coach's advice was not to respond to his text and you are in the method of "pattern breaking" and this is what you want, then why did you respond to his text last night?
oh and hi Mandy and Hecate! hope you are both doing well
xxxx
Hi Ladies. Thanks again.
MandyKay: you keep saying "no judgments" but you seem quite judgmental of me. I wonder if that has something to do with your own 90/10s. You are also mistaken in that I have a victim energy, and perhaps your tendency to do see me as such has to do with your own projections. While I took this as a place to share my wounds and be vulnerable, and I was obviously hurt by my M as I am not a callous and leather-hearted woman, I am by no means a victim. And the uncertainty on how to handle my course of action was not an expression of victimhood but rather trying to share my experience and glean the wisdom of others.
I am not laughing at him, or punishing him with negative thoughts or negative energy. You clearly do not know me at all (again, I suspect more of your own projections). I am not capable of such sinister characteristics, and it's only out of caring for him deeply, having forgiving and positive thoughts about him that I even bother considering that this relationship has a chance to be healed.
Yes, I did respond to his text last night once as I mentioned he usually has no reason whatsoever to be in my area so I thought he was looking to see me. Once I found out that was not the case I ceased responding. Sue me.
It's also not as cut and dry as "tit for tat" but if you want to be so reductive of my emotional spectrum, please feel free to criticize all you want. I am also fully aware of my role in our situation and have stated repeatedly that if we get another chance, I will do things very differently. I am fully prepared to accept that he might not step up to the plate as I hope in which case, the relationship will be done, if it's not done already.
I am late to the party, but Delfina, I must concur with the others...you need to be clear in what you want...if you want him to call you vs texting, then text him back, let him know you would enloy him calling you...if you don't want to talk, but stay tethered, then respond to his text in a receptive way...if you are uncertain, then tell him what Joy suggested...if you play games, and even subconsciously try to punish him, thats what you'll get back...
Personally i dont think Delfina is punishing him at all.
She is just not accepting lukewarm crumbs..such as a text at 11pm to say he was in her neighbourhood..?!?
If he wants to see her he needs to call and plan a date. I dont think she needs to ask him anything right now. He needs to see she is not waiting around on crumbs and step up.
This would be a different case if it was a real cave, but its not , its a guy who wanted space and to miss her.
I am putting on my "peer moderator" hat right now. I think that tempers are beginning to show and the posts are getting rather personal on here.
I do think that everyone is entitled to their opinions on each situation. That is part of what makes a public forum like this so great, you hear from a wide variety of people with a wide variety of experience. But I also think we need to be mindful to treat each other with respect. That does not mean that everyone will agree with everyone, it just means that we express ourselves in a constructive way rather than a hurtful way.
Thanks!
<stepping off the peer moderator soap box>
Delfina,
My intent is not to be judgmental or cruel towards you or anyone on the forums...ever...
Apparently I have it all wrong! I'm okay with that. I will say one last thing before bowing out:
Yes, I did respond to his text last night once as I mentioned he usually has no reason whatsoever to be in my area so I thought he was looking to see me. Once I found out that was not the case I ceased responding.
In the future, don't read into his texts. If he wants to see you, he will say that. If you are going the route of the coach's advice, this means you don't respond to his texts because doing so sets you back to zero in terms of "pattern breaking".
All the best to you!
Hi, Joy! Good to see you around I'm doing well hope life is treating you well!
BTW, Delfina, I apologize for hurting your feelings in stating you were a victim (and any other way).
As ever, with lots of gratitude for all your words and all your support and wisdom.
I know this thread is getting long. Just hope those who come across it can learn from my mistakes and choices etc. Love is a hard road to navigate sometimes. I've learned so much from all of you, not just about this relationship but as I look into my past and recognize my errors and patterns. Relationship problems can be isolating at times and I am grateful for this network of wise women.
Peace Always,
Delfina
If he picked up the phone and called you, in three weeks you would be right back
where you are now. He has not really had time to miss you, long for you, yearn to have
you back or become consumed by the loss of you.
My view is that when something like this happens the V should have no contact with the
M for at least six months. Then, if he truly loves her, he would still be pursuing her.
She would come back to the relationship from a place of strength and innate self respect.
During the six months, the V can go right ahead with her life. She will learn that she is
strong and has more to offer than she ever imagined. She is the prize. This strategy
always works. Sometimes the V decides she does not want the M back, though.
I thought long and hard about responding to this, but ultimately it matters to me that my voice is heard because some very personal statements were made toward/about me. I feel I can respond in a constructive manner...
I have to say, I thought you handled the text exchange beautifully. I also feel strongly that this is not (IMO) caving in the JG sense of the word, but rather really bad behavior that is IMO unacceptable in an exclusive R, I don't care how long it's been (but 6 months is ore than long enough to warrant expecting more than this). So responding by being receptive, as if it truly were caving, really may not apply here. This is more than a man under stress taking breathing room, this is a lazy man who is jerking Delfinas chain with mysterious mixed messages, is passively trying to get Delfina to re-open the door and carry him through it, and takes for granted Delfina will be there waiting for him regardless of how long he does this. I personally would not be able to trust my heart in his hands again, but I understand that you want one try to see if it's really who he is, or just learned from you that it's okay to be lazy in the R and can possibly unlearn. I was never ready to let go after the first "incident" in my past R's, either
I think you did a great job of showing him you won't respond to wishy-washiness ("why what?" indeed ). I also think he is probably shocked you didn't jump at the chance to see him, and is getting a pretty good idea there's a new Delfina on the scene and he's going to have to step up if he wants her.
Yeah, it was a very clear statement on your part, congratulation with that. Those of us who read the thread have only been around you for a little while and we have already noticed what an extraordinary woman you are.
I feel sorry for the M in question that even having had half a year he still can't see it and behaves so poorly that you have to get help to deal with it. Poor guy.
Just wanted to share the latest. After another week of total silence and no more texts from my M, I decided to make to text him a photo a photographer sent me that was taken of us at a charity event 2 months ago, a photo I'd forgotten about. So I sent it saying "Look what was sent to me today" and he replied with a phone call about an hour later. The first thing he said when I picked up was "it's so good to hear your voice."
We chit-chatted for about 20 mins, just general catch-up talk about our lives. No mention of our break up, the silence between us or anything. At one point he said, "the human brain is a funny thing. I hear your voice and I can only think of being in bed with you." I didn't say anything and he said, "Well, it's just a natural trick of memory." We talked for a bit longer and as we hung up he said, "I'm really happy we spoke and really happy you sent me that photo." We hung up and he texted me a photo of himself, then a little while later he called again and we had another 15 min of chit chat, and then, as we hung up, he said, "We'll talk later, if you want." I said OK.
I feel a weight has been lifted from my chest with this communication. The silence was killing me. From what I gather it sounds that he's been very productive in this period without me. So maybe it's for the best we are not together now. He also said, among the first things when we spoke, was that he booked a gig in September that he would confirm with me so I could go.
We'll see what happens now. But I guess he was waiting on me to open the door for contact. So I did and I am glad I did, and feel at peace with the outcome, and hopeful for a more peaceful resolution in the future.
Maybe he will just disappear again. Or maybe he won't?
Yep, they wait until the coast is clear.
Thank you, Delfina, for sharing with us the updates. I hope things work out for you.
Just guard your heart because he can do the same thing all over again. It may just be his nature - not bad or good, just how he is. If you want this to continue, you should take a step back and start at a lower level, take sex off the table as if it's a new r/s and see if he steps up. You probably already know this.
Best of luck! I hope it works out the way you want it to.
With stepping back, be sure to communicate to him what's cool and what isn't to YOU within the confines of a six-month r'ship. This doesn't have to be a lecture, or some kind of punishment. It can be done in a very pass-the-butter type of way, but you can't assume he'll know your feelings. Forget about it entirely, and he'll think it's OK behavior.
I think men NEED time away, and they need to know that you'll gracefully and graciously be happy for them to take it when they need it. But they're big boys, and they ought to be able to communicate SOMETHING rather than just disappearing.
That ain't OK in a long-term r'ship for ME. After two dates, I don't expect any communication if they're done. After six months, that just isn't cool.
To me it sounds like your text allowed him to feel relief...and NOT feel like a bad guy. I hope you do not get your hopes up about resuming a relationship. He sounds content with being friends and would probably welcome friends with benefits.
Yes, Delphina, thanks for posting your update. I have not yet replied to your thread but I did read through this enire thread and have been thinking about you and wondering how you're doing.
I don't know why it's taken me so long to post. But your situation touches me. Clearly it has also touched many others on the boards and inspired some heated debate! In a way it's too bad that so many of us have experienced a much beloved M pulling away for no identifiable reason and the obsession-inspiring heartache of not knowing what this means about the future of the relationship and how we are supposed to respond.
It was this very predicament that brought me to these boards the first time. Maybe it's just me projecting, but I feel that what you would really like is for the relationship and this M to be the way it was before. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about this. In my case, my hope was that since M/V teaches how to communicate with the opposite gender in a way that leads to fulfilling relationsihps, I could fix myself and regain my M's affections. Of course, this plan not work out. But I learned a lot that did help me to change in positive ways that enabled me to ultimatey achieve a more fulfilling realtionship. What changed was my perspective and my prioirties. Through a subsequent relationship debacle, I learned not to blame myself so much and how/why it is so important for a V to take the time to get to know the true M before getting attached. JG calls it putting on the brakes.
What strikes me most about your situation is your writing how much you cherish and miss the deep connection you felt with this M. I also felt this way about the first M. With a lot of distance and hindsight, I can now see that my ex-M is very good at making yummy connections and that what I fell in love with was only part of his overall personality. Your M has now shown you other sides of himself. You now know that there are aspects of this M that are inconsiderate and even cruel. I particularly do not like the text where he mentioned that he knew why he pulled away but did not share it with you. This M waited until you were fully attached to show himself to you. Since so many others share this experience, we can conclude that this is a fairly common pattern and I believe this is why M/V advises V's to evaluate a relationship over time and respect herself enough to only continue with an M who truly cherishes you for the jewel you are.
The way I see it is that this M's recent behavior has shown you that he is not that M, at least for now. Deep inside, you know this and you also know that the relationship will never be what it was before. That kind f disappointment is hard to accept. I have noticed that quite a few V's on these boards are well accomplished. I'm starting to think that the high achievers may have an even harder time letting go of hurtful relationships because on an emotional/ego level it is experienced as a deeply personal failure and we feel an almost existential level of loss. Hence the feeling of power/hope when your M gives you small bits of validation like texts and nice phone calls. The real question is whether this M has what it takes to make you happy in the long term. In my experience, M's who behave this way rarely come through for more than a few weeks/months. At least that's what happened to me with my ex-M over the course of 2 years before I finally accepted that no matter how non-pressuring I was, no matter what kind of an interesting life I lead outside the relationship, things would always end the same way because of him.
Anyway, I feel that you have conducted yourself with utmost grace toward the M and also during the discussions on these boards and I admire you for this. I hope that your future interactions with this M lead you to a greater level of happiness that what brought you here. I'd love to know how things go for you over time. You seem like a real jewel.
Not that I haven't written enough already. But it seems to me that he was waiting for the coast to be vlear and is now testing the waters to see what size crumbs you are willing to accept. His comment that hearing your voice makes him think only of being in bed with you gioves me the willies. After all that has passed, it's disrespectful.
I'm thinking good thoughts and hope things go well with all of this Delfina, and will be hoping for your updates, come what may!
Thanks to you all for your comments and support.
JR, I think you are right, he was waiting to see that the coast was clear. And I think that in taking the extra time, I needed to clear my own coast of hurt, resentment, sadness, etc. I do feel that I came to this conversation from a good, peaceful, positive place. I was receptive and gracious, but guarded and didn't give any extra emotion away or ask questions, complain, or make demands figuring there would be another time for me to get to the bottom of what happened between us.
My first reaction after speaking with him was sweet relief, as it seemed a very positive conversation to me, with mutual interest, sort of like the very first times we used to speak on the phone before we started dating when we were both cautious but excited and nervous to be talking to each other. As for his comment about "bed", well, Meandering is right, that sort of talk was pretty common between us when we were dating, very expressive, sensual, etc. Normally, I would not have thought twice about it but it did jump out at me given what's happened between us. But he buffered it in his strange way saying that part about the "human mind," not making it sound like he was longing for me, suffering without me. Later, when we spoke the second time, he also said, "I wish I could kiss you right now, but that's obviously impossible." It was sweet but also confusing because I wasn't sure if the "impossible" meant because he was across town and in the middle of the workday or impossible because we are no longer together and in his mind will never be together again. Yes, this M sometimes speaks in riddles...
I had an ex who used to do that thing where every time we spoke after we split up, even after he was in another relationship, living with another woman for years, he'd start going down memory lane of our intimate life. It was a game for him I guess. Then he'd hang up and go back to his regular life. I worried for a bit that this is what my current M is starting to do, but then I tell myself I can't let my 90/10s take over. I've got to take this for what it is so far.
At another point he said, "How are your dogs? They must happy they don't have to see me around the house anymore." Again, I wasn't sure if there was finality in that statement, or if he was trying to feel me out.
Part of me is just happy that he hasn't disappeared forever and we are still in touch. I hoped that this was a first conversation and that it opens the door to more communication and that we can one day have a talk where he explains to me exactly what happened. At the same time it sounded to me like he's been very productive in his time without me so with a heavy heart I must admit that maybe in some ways he's better off without me. Our relationship had gotten out of hand and took over our lives. Now he's free to pursue more of his goals. I do hope that in the future we might find our way back to each other. The fact that he told me he wanted me to go to his gig in September gives me hope. He was very proud because it's at a great venue. But also he told me he's been playing smaller gigs the past few weeks, and of course he did not invite me to any of those, but we weren't speaking anyway.
I'm trying to take this for what it is: a conversation, and an end to the silence. He was sweet, affectionate, but he did not make plans with me, or ask to see me. But maybe that will come later. Or maybe it won't. I'm going to focus on my work this summer, and I've got a 2 week trip planned in August so this summer should pass pretty quickly. Maybe in time things will shift between us. I do love him and I do have hope, but I also am trying to talk myself out of holding hope and accepting that this is the end and maybe we'll just be casual acquaintances.
I wont' be texting or calling him. I wanted to open the door so he could feel free to call me if he wants and know I won't chase him off with a baseball bat. Now he knows. I have no idea if he wants to get back together but he has time to think about it now. As do I.
Hi All. My best wishes to all of you.
Just wanted to update on how things have progressed after the last phone call with my M lat Wednesday. On Friday afternoon he texted me a few times. I took my time responding but did eventually respond. I didn't hear from him all weekend. Then, on Monday morning he texted me another photo of himself saying good morning. I waited an hour to reply. We texted back and forth a few times and then he called me and we spoke for about 40 mins. Another light-hearted conversation, friendly, just catching up, though he did most of the talking telling me about his weekend and went out of his way to tell me what he did and who he was with as if to say that he was with no other women. There was a bad thunderstorm with power outages Sunday night and he told me next time a big storm comes that I should call him and he will come keep me company. A few times he said he missed me in different ways. Again, I didn't give anything away emotionally, rather just spoke to him like he was an old dear friend. But he does seem more curious and interested in pursuing me now. I'm not really sure what's happening, and trying not to give it much importance. Just doing my own thing, and letting time take care of things.
Peace.
Delfina
Just be careful in your wishes and hopes regarding this man. It sounds so similar to the r/s which brought me to these boards. We had such a great connection, talk about moving in together, all that. Then the drop-off. Then he did start contacting me again, on IM and via phone. I was so hopeful, thinking, "wow, he's thinking about me. He's probably testing the waters to see if I'm mad, he's going to ramp up now." Nope. Our conversations were just as they were when we were dating, the cute innuendos and everything. But after a while of this, I finally could not stand it any longer and asked when we were going to get together. (Mistake!!!) But I got my answer. He danced around that for a while, and I realized it wasn't going to go back to the way it was. It was pretty clear soon enough that he was thinking FWB where I was thinking romance.
We obviously have no idea what your M has in mind, and you will ultimately have to make that decision all by yourself. But guard yourself - know that many men will keep up the chatting as long as the V is willing to do so. And many, many men will be perfectly happy to carry on with the benefits knowing full well they don't want a r/s with the woman.
That's exactly why I've suggested she outline what she wants to have happen. There's no guarantee he'll do a thing WITH that info, but it will be clearer sooner if he's wasting her time.
BigRed & JR, I agree with both. I'm not getting any clear sings of what he wants so I assume he wants nothing more than that chit chat and banter, which is why I'm not getting emotionally involved in our conversations. I've decided this summer is my summer to focus on my work, working out, friends,- with my 2 week trip in August, and we'll see if he steps up, but I'm not holding my breath. I haven't hit him with any hard questions yet because I don't have the time or energy for more heaviness, at least till the end of the summer. He hasn't suggested FWB and I'm pretty sure he knows I would not be up for it. But I'm trying to be slightly receptive in the even that he might be looking to get back together, but obviously not counting on it anymore.
Well.... a few things Am not sure what type of "gig" you are referring to in September but since I'm in the music biz I'm going to assume it is some type of gig like that. If it is, then I would absolutely NOT go nor lead him to believe that you are. (unless you are again bf & gf by then)
The fact that he is telling you about it and has invited you to come, yet isn't stepping up in any other way, has massive red flags all over it ...to me. He's treating you like a groupie, he's only inviting you to something he's hoping a lot of people come to....he isn't treating you in a special way at all. This is total performer code speak; let's see if she'll come out to my performance and how far she'll go. That is how they toy with V's, and it is the most common way to keep V's hooked and since it's public, keep things in check.
Sorry if the above is coming from left field, I did go back to reread some things to see if I could figure out what the M would be having a "gig" for....lol. Anyway, if I'm way off, my apologies
Since I work with artists, live with one and was married to one for 19 years.... I can also say those poems and flowers are the trick of the trade It's the hook, line and sinker. It's their natural habitat and easy for them to do. A poem written by an electrical engineer?... THAT would be special
From the info you are sharing of your conversations, I hear an M who is admitting to having broke up with you. Who admits that "this" is over.... might be some wistfulness about that...but nothing more concrete (other than inviting you to that gig)
Much love to you Delfina and yay that you are working on having a "my summer"; you deserve it
Just a quick note - don't ever assume he knows you won't be up for FWB. His m ind works differently than yours. I made it totally clear more than once during our r/s and he still thought I'd change my mind because he had me hooked.
Thanks for the update; it's good to know how you're doing. You really do seem to have a good grip on things. Yet I think we all feel a bit protective of you, Delphina. Your love for this M is palpable and no one wants to see you get hurt anymore than you aleady have been. We're all rooting for you! No matter how things turn out you will always find support around here.
Thanks ladies!
Meandering, your artist observations made me crack up , mostly because I am also an artist while my M is just trying to make his music hobby into a bigger thing, though his day job is in something entirely separate. So for him telling me about the gig was a big point of pride because it was one he'd been dreaming of getting for a very long time. He's in no position to have groupies at this point, and he told me he's sort of terrified he's going to blow it at that gig and never be invited back.
On the other hand, while I'm not a musician, he has attended countless of my "gigs" though they're in art galleries not concert halls. I'm all too familiar with the "tricks" you described but in this case, I don't think that's what's going on.
Like I said, it's still too early for me to really determine what's going on and I don't want to jump the gun with a confrontation I don't really have the time for since I'm under pressure with a deadline and don't feel like crying more this summer. By the end of the summer if things are status quo, I'll address it head on with him and ask him what's up. Maybe before them he will give a clearer indication.
As for the FWB, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it but I don't think it's headed there since we haven't even hung out together and I'm not really a casual sort of lady. If we did end up hanging out a serious "what's going on here" conversation would take place long before any physical action would have a chance to manifest. If he does want to get together one of these days, it won't be at either of our homes, but in a public place.
I'm very busy these days and working out like a fiend but I do, still, at the bottom of my heart have some hope. I'm even trying some of "The Secret" positive thinking tactics. But my heart isn't hung up on him like it was. I'm seeing the bigger picture now and I know that without him, I will be fine too.
Glad you cracked up Delfina! My exh is a fine artist, and I lived in that world for many many years. Now I'm dealing with musicians I have been fortunate to have worked with some true artistes in every sense of the word over the years in both realms though the more commerical stuff has allowed me that luxury.
Musicians are a bit of a different breed and the personality traits can even be traced to the actual instrument they play including a vocal one. And those that write vs those that play. Anyway, my passion is and always has been my entire adult life to be the liaison between art & commerce without the art losing it's integrity.
Well, I have news to share. My ex had been calling and texting about 2 days a week and today, after texting in the morning, he called in the afternoon and asked if he could see me. I eventually agreed and to make a long conversation very short, he came to my house and we sat on the porch and he explained that he walked out on our relationship because he was "scared" and apologized for the way he handled everything. I grilled him, gave him a hard time by getting all the answers to my questions, but with compassion and kindness and he was very forthcoming about sharing his fears and anxieties and how he ran away. He took responsability for everything. Finally, he asked me if we could start seeing each other again, dating, but casually, not serious or with committment but not fooling around either, and basically just taking things as they come and seeing what happens. This sounded odd to me but I can see why it may be the logical thing, to ease back into getting to know each other again without he expectations and routines we had before that drove us apart. I have a very different attitude now and am not as emotionally invested. Plus I'm very busy, and I plan to stay busy. But I am willing to see him again, though very guarded. I'm not sure he's the guy for me anymore but I'm not ready to say goodbye forever either.
On a side vent: it really bothers me when M's run like this and then come back with apologies. We V's are empathetic and it appeals to our nurturing instincts. For years I thought "why do I always have to be the strong one." I want a real man, that's strong, that gives me walls to bounce off of....
Anyway.... your guy may be that most of the time and I hope he steps up in a super duper way, YOU totally deserve that real man.
I hope he's decent. But mine gave me the same speech. He was fine for four months, then disappeared a week after asking me to "make this permanent" and the same week my father died of cancer.
So just admitting he's scared would mean NOTHING to me at this point.
I think we get scared when something seems like it's too good to be true but we could get hurt. We don't get scared when something feels mild and our heart is not involved. When we are scared, we step back and hide. I've done it with a man that I was very attracted to. That's why it's so important for us to pace a relationship and respect each other's fears. We are all afraid of intimacy and rejection - men are more afraid of being engulfed by too much intimacy and women are more afraid of rejection. In general.
When a woman is afraid it's important for the man to stay still, and be himself so that she can trust him and the same thing goes when a man is afraid. Stay still and do nothing. Instead, we tend to react, attack, pursue or withdraw (because of our own fears). When the M steps back and hides (especially after revealing his fears or becoming vulnerable) we treat this as yet another reason why he can't be trusted. So it becomes a push pull. Stay still. Don't move. Don't react. Trust that he is telling you the truth. If you don't trust him, you shouldn't be with him in the first place. If you trust him, observe but don't judge or react. Wait and be patient. If this is the man you want.
To me, him wanting a casual dating scenario is evidence that he's still 'scared'. If the break had given him clarity and he was sure about this relationship he would not be asking for casual.
Delfina, I too hope he steps up and becomes the man you deserve. I'm very happy to hear that you are guarding your heart here with him. Let him show you who he is, let him show you his worth.
Also, if he isn't taking steps to move your relationship forward within about 2/3 months, I'd show him the door, before you let down your guard with him and he gets scared again.
Have you asked him in what way he doesn't trust you or the relationship? What is missing for him? What does he need not to be scared? His answer will help you see if there is a chance for a future.
At the six month mark, I don't know that much pacing will do anyone any good. Pacing in the beginning is an absolute must, but by six months, virtually anyone will have let down their guard and let the guy in. This is the risk of dating - that you can do everything "right" and still get hurt.
Hi everyone. Sorry my earlier post was kind of general and I skipped some of the more significant details but I was exhausted and dying to get into bed and sleep. So, just to be more specific, he told me he was "Scared" because he's been alone for 7 years or so since he got divorced and got used to being alone ("like a lone wolf") and that he also feels that a man is defined by his ability to be a husband and father and provider and he felt that he was still too unstable to consider offering me those things, not that I asked for them, or put pressure on him. He said it was all in his own head and that's why he started to withdraw and create distance and he knows it wasn't right now he handled it, and that he should have explained it to me, but that he was so far inward and just operating on fears of his own instability due to work etc and inability to offer more committment.
*I heard: fear of committment and wanted to hurl.
So...as he continued he said that every time he would send me one of those stupid text messages or initiate one of those dumb chit chat phone calls, it was him trying to offer me an apology and explanation but he would always chicken out. He says he knows he was a coward. He was afraid to face me and explain that all this was for such a dumb reason like being "scared." He also said he is still "scared" and that as he's in front of me being vulnerable and asking forgiveness and asking for another chance he is still terrified. I asked of what? He said he doesn't know. Maybe of being close, of the unknown, of failing me. Anyway, he said he wanted a chance to see me again. I was very hesitant. I said, why me? Why not just start dating other people. He told me he doesn't want to date anyone else. He isn't interested in getting to know someone knew or just sleeping with girls or anything, and that he's only interested in seeing and being with me.
But he said in a non-serious way. Basically going back to square one of when we started dating when he was inviting me out on planned dates and we'd talk on the phone but it hadn't yet fallen into expectations and routines. I was skeptical. To me this sounded almost like friends with benefits but he said it wouldn't be casual like just screwing around and passing the time. It would be us dating, and seeing where it goes from there. But not with the momentum and speed it took the first time around.
So I didn't really give him an answer. I just let him to all of the talking and he did a lot of it as this conversation lasted over 2 hours. He tried to kiss me several times (we were sitting on chairs side by side) but I kept pulling away. Finally he stole a kiss and I pushed him away. But when he left that night I did let him kiss me so maybe that's an obvious answer that I'm open to seeing him again. He called me twice later that weekend to tell me he couldn't stop thinking about me, and then to tell me goodnight before going to sleep.
During the conversation he told me he could tell I don't look at him the same way anymore. It's true. All that shiny luster of being head over heels for him, idealizing him and thinking him perfect is gone. But I still care for him and feel chemistry, attraction, and familiarity and connection. But I don't have that dreamy hope I used to have for our future. I see now chances are we won't last because that instability he spoke of, though it's improving, won't go away for a long, long time. So I am willing to see him but it's almost for the best that it's in that non-serious way because them I have more time to explore other options without being locked into another serious relationship with him. So in some ways I think it's the best approach. He can't offer something serious right now and if he could, I'm not sure I'd take it at this point, or trust it. But I trust him now, for now. I believe everything he says. I think he's sincere. This is nothing to plan a future on. All that is gone. This is just about taking it day by day. As I wrote in earlier posts, I mismanaged our relationship and let it get very intense very fast so this whole experience is a great learning lesson and this new phase will also be a test of my own restraint.
So, we'll see what happens...
It all sounds good, but doesnt change anything i said. For me.
Hecate, so basically he's 38 now. He got married at 22 because his girlfriend was pregnant. He got divorced at about 30 but reconciled with his ex for a while. They live in his native country, which he left almost 7 years ago. Since that time he's lived all over Europe until moving to the US just over a year ago. He did date during those years but nothing long term as he was working very hard trying to save money and send money home to his kids.
As you can see, it's not quite as cut and dry his his feelings or fears of losing me. Yes, the average guy in a more or less stable life would be able to see at 6 months where things are going. But this M can't because he still has many other balls in the air with his work, finances, kids, etc. There are many practical issues at hand. As I wrote in earlier posts I'm in a more stable position than he is in pretty much every way. He knows I want to settle down and get married. He's not saying he can't do that with me yet. He's saying he's scared but wants to keep seeing each other and exploring our relationship. I'm not going to give him and all-or-nothing ultimatum. I think that's not in line with MV principals anyway. But as many predicated on this thread, I am also now in "uncertainty." So I say that I'd be open to exploring other options meaning if another guy comes along, I won't exclude the possibility just because of my M.
So, I can understand the skepticism from others. I'm not skeptical of his intentions, because he's not a slimeball. When we were together it was great, it just hit that terrible, terrible wall. I don't know if we can come back from that. I told him all the ways he hurt me and that it was unacceptable and if he ever does anything similar again that is the last he will ever see of me. He said he understands and it won't happen again. He said: I'm sitting here in front of you terrified (he was on his knees holding my hand, btw) but I don't want to be with anyone else. Can we please try again? Try it slow, without commitments, and see where we go?
Like I said, I still haven't given a verbal answer. It also depends on how he continues his efforts.
I don't really know what pre-exclusivity means, but I guess that's what this is? And I will be very busy for the next month or two so that she could us in check with the overexposure.
I must admit I truly missed him. And I'm very happy and feel very at peace with the fact that he came looking for me and that he explained everything and took full responsability.
Are you comfortable with this M dating other Vs?
I'm not saying he's going to do this, but it's a possibility (from my understanding). In the Attraction phase (pre-Exclusivity--i.e. explore your "relationship without commitments") this is what Ms an Vs do and the V should not be so invested that she cares. This is the mindset you need to get back to: that it's okay for him to run off with another V because you are the prize and if he doesn't want you, then that's his loss.
BTW, he doesn't have to be a slimeball to allow his fears to overcome him and "run away" again. Having fears is about being human--we all have them. I am a self proclaimed "loner" and being vulnerable in an intimate relationship is one of the most difficult things I've had to do. My "fight or flight" mechanism turned on when my relationship was progressing through the early stages of Intimacy. Rather than run away from my relationship, I choose to fight my fears and work through them. I hope your M chooses to "fight" next time his fears come into play...
Well meaning, good hearted, lovely people can jump the gun and run from relationships.
Yeah, I get that he's not the best contender for a future, and as I said, I'm not looking at him or our relationship with rose-tinted glasses anymore. He's just a guy I care for and like a lot. But I'm more realistic now.
And yes, though I don't think he will date others, I will accept if he does. And that of course gives me the freedom and option to do the same.
I'll probably give this till the end of the year and see what how thing are by then, when I hit my 35th birthday. Till then I will be doing plenty of observing and evaluating, not just his conduct, but my own feelings.
Yes, he might run away again. And maybe I will run away. I'm a loner too, and two loners together is a funny combination. He definitely needs to win me back. Right now is just about giving him the chance to try.
I don't think he's intentionally a slime ball, but then, I don't think very many people on Planet Earth are intentional slime balls. That doesn't stop people from being weak.
I've been very clear on here that my strong opinions come from the fact that I've been here before, so take that with a grain of salt. This guy is not my ex (I am assuming) and therefore things could be really different.
But this is what I've learned from my experience:
However we learn to deal with our problems at an early age predicts how we will deal with problems the rest of our lives unless we intervene with some serious self work and/or therapy. My ex learned to deal with problems by running away from them and pretending it didn't hurt anyone else. This guy also ran away without too much consideration as to how it affected you.
Some people learn to deal with problems by drinking, by violence, by silence, by blame.
I do not think that every relationship will end in a wedding ring. MOST of the romantic r'ships you have in a lifetime will not work out for one reason or another. They end.
What separates them is the maturity at which they end. When I was younger, I ended more than one r'ship in very immature and hurtful ways. Those incidents will be regrets for me for a long time, and in almost every case, I've gone back to the guy and apologized for the way in which I handled it - while not wanting to get back together with him.
IF your M had said, "Delfina, I need some time to work out stuff in my head (knowing few Ms will ever admit to being terrified in the moment) and I'll contact you next week (month, whatever)." Then I would say it was handled maturely and that's the best you can hope for, knowing that he doesn't owe it to you to be with you if it's not working out for him.
I know for myself that I've set a standard from now on that is I want a guy with enough maturity and class to handle his fears in a mature way. He doesn't owe it to me to be with me forever if it's not working, but he does owe it to me to be a grown-up, because that's how I'll be with him.
Anything less, and I prefer to be alone. Forever if necessary.
I hope I am wrong but this M has all the signs of a CP. He runs and comes back proclaiming he still wants you. All that remains to be seen is if/when he runs again. Being "scared" is an explanation but please do not accept it as an excuse.
So my advice is: everything he SAYS has to be taken with a grain of salt. Go by what he DOES.
And since you say you are somewhat of a loner, remember you are VERY susceptible to CPs.
Delfina,
To me this guy does not sound like a good prospect for much at all. Do you not see how he
deals with things? He has "lived all over Europe" and then moved to the US. This, in spite of the fact that he has small children who have been deprived of his presence and will bear the scars of the absent father for the rest of their lives. A real man would never do that.
He has treated you the same way, and you can bet whenever things get down to the
crunch, he will behave as he always has, disappearing. You are wasting your time and
putting your heart in danger. I think you can do a lot better than him.
AK
Hi AK, to be clear, he did not go to Europe to have fun and travel. He left to find better options than what he had in his home home country which is under an oppressive government that keeps its citizens in total poverty. He did not want to leave his family. He HAD to leave in the hope of offering them a better future. A real man, in my opinion, does not sit and watch his family suffer, and they go out looking for opportunity to provide for them any way they can. I, myself, am an immigrant though I came to this country almost 20 years ago. I made it in this country, mastered the language and have built a lucrative and stable life, and I understand his journey, though I did not leave children behind. It's not something most people can relate to unless you've been in the situation yourself. This is one of the reasons I admire him so much. He may be afraid of intimacy but he's incredible brave in his life, shows remarkable character and courage.
Yes, he may be commitment phobic. As I said, I'm not placing all my dreams on him, and I am taking everything he says with a grain of salt. But I do care for him enough to let him try to show me a better side of him now. What he does with the opportunity is his call. And if it's not good enough, I will move on. I'm a loner but I'm not a fool.
Apologizing does not change what someone does or more importantly ...
WHO THEY ARE
This guy abandons his own children???
It appears he has a habit of running away from situations that call for responsible adult behavior and action. That is a "weenie" ... not a man.
DO you want to be with a "weenie" ... or with a MAN???
Men like this do not change ... I can tell you after 18 years of dealing with a "weenie" that they do not change and are always looking for an escape from adult life.
Reenie
No-no Delphina
He should have taken his family with him like every other immigrant seeking a better life for their family has done throughout the history of mankind. My grandparents were immigrants and my grandfather brought his family with him to seek better opportunity - not leave them behind to fend for themselves. And this was during WWII.
I am sorry ... but I have ZERO respect for men who leave children behind in any way. This is a sign of a flawed character. And I believe every woman of good character deserves a man who is her equal at least in that regards.
Good Luck
Reenie
Reenie, with all due respect, you don't really know what you're talking about and are being very quick to judge.
He's from a country that does not give visas or allow its residents to leave. Hard to imagine given the freedom we enjoy in the United States that there are still governments that operate this way but it's true. After ten years of denied efforts, he was able to secure an athletic visa to audition for a professional soccer team in France and then defected in order to find work abroad and send money home as there is no work and no opportunity in his home country. His family is not permitted to leave their country, not even to go on vacation. Now that he has his US residency he has applied to bring his children here later on.
As I said, most people can't related unless they've been in the situation. WWII was a long time ago, and it's quite difficult for foreigners to enter the country these days much less secure visas for an entire family.
I'm kind of surprised at the cynicism I'm receiving on this thread in response to my M doing what I and others had hoped which was to come clean and explain his actions, apologize, and make an effort to move forward. Puzzling.